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Unread 08-01-2011, 11:40 PM
 
591 posts, read 330,772 times
Reputation: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by nr5667 View Post
Everyone projects. We tend to presume people think and live like we do.
No, I absolutely do not.
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Unread 08-01-2011, 11:55 PM
 
1,282 posts, read 1,120,169 times
Reputation: 966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icy Tea View Post
I've worked with some truly poor people and have shared food with them at lunch. Others I've shared food with are maybe not so poor but decently getting by. I don't think you can say any one class of people is more generous than another, some people are a little more generous and some people aren't.
But not being rich I've never looked at rich people with animosity or resentment. They're rich, I'm not. They have what they have and while I'd like to be rich I don't want THEIR money or possessions. If I become rich I'll probably be more generous but at the same time I'd resent anybody who had a problem with me being rich or having what I had.
At the same time poor people don't deserve an automatic pity party and handouts galore. Being poor sucks and you should try to get out of it. Its up to you, nobody else.
As far as tax breaks go, aim most of the tax breaks at the middle class. The poor pay no taxes so they don't need it. The rich will get it eventually from the middle class spending and it will trickle up on up. They buy a new refrigerator, the shareholders and owners and upper management of the company that make it get the money eventually, etc.
Well stated!

I think you've neatly encapsulated how many of us feel.
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Unread 08-02-2011, 08:30 AM
 
13,074 posts, read 5,906,139 times
Reputation: 2583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig29 View Post
What you mean is that those who envy the rich have a greedy thought pattern. Geez, you make it sound illegal for a person to want to better themselves.
Not at all, one who desires to better themselves and makes the effort to do so is to be commended. Those who make efforts to educate, innovate, or capitalize on some talent they have to reach for dreams and goals that have no limit is the American dream and something I think is great.

Those who look to another, covet their wealth, and constantly compare to themselves making objections concerning the success of that other is greedy.

It is not, nor should it be illegal for a person to be greedy, but greed is often a desire for wealth for the sake of wealth alone to which is why they constantly compare what they have with others and those of that greedy nature often lack the willingness to achieve it by means of truly earning it which is why you often see such greedy people taking short cuts (taking part in scams, manipulations of deals without integrity, stealing, lying to gain advantage, etc...) to obtain it by any measure.

I don't have a problem with those who wish to excel, and aside from the greedy infringing on others through nefarious means to excel, I don't have a problem with them either. After all, individual liberty is the cornerstone of this countries founding and as long as this concept is respected above all others, then what someone does or how they choose to live their lives is their own business.

My point, as I stated is simply that those who sit around going on about rich people needing to be taxed unequally and whining about how much they have, how much they make, in comparison to themselves are simply greedy people who desire wealth, but simply do not wish to put any effort in to obtaining it and so scheme to have it reduced in others.
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Unread 08-02-2011, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Pacific Northwest
1,010 posts, read 519,335 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig29 View Post
Bandon - Why are people in the mindset of allowing themselves to have problems? Is it to feel a sense of importance?
I'm not sure what you're saying here, Craig. Are you saying that problems don't just happen by accident or bad luck ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Just like the poor and most of the middle class are completely clueless as to how hard someone had to work to become rich. Everyone *thinks* they work hard...most people don't even know the beginning of it.
rigghht...tell that to all the worker bees who work their butts off night and day to keep body and soul together. If one cares to stand back and watch, the ones at the bottom of the totem pole often work a lot harder then the ones at the very top who sit at a desk all day shuffling papers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Riiiiight. Because you haven't the first clue what they have to go through to become and sustain their life as a 'moneyed person.'

I'm not saying they're right or wrong or whatever.

Just saying that the cluelessness runs both ways.
This is a fair point. Because the poor are clueless about what a jet set lifestyle is all about. We can imagine though...and so can they.

Which was all I was advocating for to begin with. As I said in another post, I would never dream of telling a homeless person (even though I have never been homeless--I can still imagine how horrible it would be) to just go out and buy a house, as if it was as easy as flicking a pesky fly off your arm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flycessna View Post
Two lame examples are hardly reflective of reality
You don't say. I guess I must have imagined it and so did my friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by laysayfair View Post
Telling someone you barely know your personal problems has nothing to do with "not being fake". That's why most of us don't do it and why it's called "small talk". Your friend might have come off as a bit "weird".
My friend is a brutally honest person who refuses to do the fake "how are you" "fine" nonsense that really does nothing to build human relationships. This was what was on her mind at the time the manager and her friends came outside. This wasn't the first time they had met, they'd had other conversations as well in the past so I doubt very much they thought she was weird.

I guess you had to be there to hear the conversation. It wasn't as many on here are assuming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laysayfair View Post
Don't you think it was wrong of her to assume that they'd want to hear about it?
Just as it was wrong for them to assume she was of the same income level as they were you mean ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustmaker View Post


You got that right!

Especially when "rich" is defined at an income level of $250K. Without any consideration is given for the state one lives in, the COL in the state one lives in, the fact that some people actually save for their own retirement (no pensions - no matching), pay for their health insurance premiums 100% and have the foresight to save for their kids futures...so no one else has to.

Big bad rich people. Who were scraping by and counting pennies and clipping coupons in their 20's and early 30's....before the years of hard work paid off.

Cry me a river.

Wow..It appears to be wrong on this thread for the poor to assume things about the rich, but there appears to be a cut and dried double standard going on. It seems to be perfectly ok to make assumptions about the poor. Interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
but greed is often a desire for wealth for the sake of wealth alone to which is why they constantly compare what they have with others and those of that greedy nature often lack the willingness to achieve it by means of truly earning it which is why you often see such greedy people taking short cuts (taking part in scams, manipulations of deals without integrity, stealing, lying to gain advantage, etc...) to obtain it by any measure.

I don't have a problem with those who wish to excel, and aside from the greedy infringing on others through nefarious means to excel, I don't have a problem with them either. After all, individual liberty is the cornerstone of this countries founding and as long as this concept is respected above all others, then what someone does or how they choose to live their lives is their own business.

My point, as I stated is simply that those who sit around going on about rich people needing to be taxed unequally and whining about how much they have, how much they make, in comparison to themselves are simply greedy people who desire wealth, but simply do not wish to put any effort in to obtaining it and so scheme to have it reduced in others.
Not always so, Nomander.

I can use myself as an example, I have no desire for the jet-set life, furs, cars, houses and all that. I think it would be fun of course, even great fun. I never said I even wanted to be rich because I think in a way something happens when you do become rich. A veil of sorts falls over you and you either cease to remember what being poor was like or (in the case of being born into it you simply don't understand it). Although I find that hard to imagine so many I am clueless to a point lol.

What I would like is to use my culinary diploma to someday open up my own food concession truck on the coast. I've worked very hard to acquire those skills and knowledge to do exactly that so frankly I resent the assumption and implication that I started this post just to whine about the rich. In my case as I have said I hope that it's clear that I merely want to carve out a secure, comfortable life for myself. Not luxuries per se...but to leave the worry of being able to pay bills behind. That would be my idea of heaven on earth.

I had also hoped, when I started this thread that there could be open and varied dialogue on this thread, because I really wanted to know, because it's a subject I wonder about everytime I see or hear an example of what I percieve as the rich being clueless.

Honestly, I've seen some of that. And I appreciate it, but I also see a lot of assumptions and judgements on the working poor and don't accept that it is ok, but that the working poor aren't allowed their assumptions and are merely "whiners".

And yes, I'm aware I've rambled a bit here, but I just woke up and haven't had enough coffee yet..so sorry for that
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Unread 08-02-2011, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Long Island NY
309 posts, read 172,257 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
and what is wrong with the comment

1. the person IS WORKING, so they do have an income
2. thier machine is BROKEN
3. they NEED clean clothes
4. either spend money at a laudrymat (which they state they cant do) or buy a new (or used) one


so its a VALID question, why not get a new one (btw NEW doesnt always mean not owned by anyone else...you can get used, scratch-n-dent, floor model, thrift store, appliance rehab, etc)

Reminds me of the time I got divorced. In order to keep the house, I had to rent it out. The washing machine broke the first week. I went to scrach-n-dent discount store. The machine (ugly) lasted 13 years. It cost me under $200 with delivery. Good deal huh? "Necessity is the mother of learning" my teacher used to day!
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Unread 08-02-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Ohio
9,600 posts, read 4,896,119 times
Reputation: 5522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandon View Post
I pose this question, because it really seems to me that the wealthy & affluent are clueless about a lot of things.
Perhaps it might help to view it from their perspective.

Those people who are adept at creating and growing wealth. They have self-discipline, exercise both common sense and practical sense, as well as displaying foresight and are willing to make short-term sacrifices to achieve a long-term gain.

Although assumptions aren't always proper, maybe you can forgive them for making the assumption that you are as self-disciplined and brimming with common sense as they are.

Your typical grabasstic American is like: Me want McMansion. Me want McMansion now! Me sign bad loan for McMansion. Me have HELOC. Me want Plasma TV. Me want NetFlix. Me want Starsux. Me want free health care. Me got 2nd Mortgage for credit cards.

The "rich" are different: Even though I don't really want to do so, I'll continue to live in this apartment for 5 years, save my money and then purchase an affordable home, because I will benefit in the long-term.

Your typical grabasstic American will purchase a $250,000 McMansion with 0% down at 6.5 % for 30 years and as a consequence of their stupidity, desire for instant self-gratification, and refusal to make a short-term sacrifice for a long term gain, and they will pay $318,000 in interest, which is more than twice the price of the house.

Does that make sense? Why would you want to buy something twice? Because that is exactly what you're doing.

Then of course later you have to sell the McMansion for $650,000 because they have to get at least $568,000 in order to make any semblance of a "profit," and when the McMansion is only valued at $450,000 and they're poised to take a huge loss, they will blame everyone but themselves for their ignorance, short-sightedness, lack of intelligence and lack of self-discipline.

Is any of this ringing a bell?

The financially mature and intelligent person, ie "the rich" would save up money and put 25% to 35% down on their $250,000 McMansion and pay only $79,956 in interest. The "rich" person can then sell the home later for $450,000 which is the same price the Stupid Class idiot has his McMansion for sale, and still make a profit of...

....$120,044, while the your typical grabasstic idiot takes a loss of $118,000.

The "rich" then take the $238,905 in savings in interest from their home that they didn't pay because of their short-sightedness and lack of self-discipline, and parlay that into $762,505 through investments, and $762,505 is what you would get by just putting the money into a very simple uncomplicated investment vehicle like a pass-book savings account.

So the "rich" person ends up with $120,044 plus $762,505 or $882,549 in profits while the idiot takes a loss of $356,905.

And then you sit around and wonder why the "rich" are "rich." Well, it's because they don't act like a stupid idiot.

How many $Hundreds or $Thousands do you literally throw away every year on credit card interest? It's only a few hundred. Yeah, well that's a very poor attitude. Every penny counts.

The simple fact is you make bad financial decisions every single second of every single day of your adult life.

Your friend with the broken washing machine should have not less than 6 months worth of living expenses and costs saved up in the bank, and should be able to go out purchase a new washing machine with cash.

And if your friend can't do that, then it's because your friend is stupid and has made bad financial decisions.
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Unread 08-02-2011, 12:24 PM
 
23,968 posts, read 6,871,045 times
Reputation: 2539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandon View Post
I'm not sure what you're saying here, Craig. Are you saying that problems don't just happen by accident or bad luck ?
Seems to me that the "friend" who didn't have enough money to repair/replace a broken washing machine because they spent money on cigarettes instead did indeed create their own problem.
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Unread 08-02-2011, 07:09 PM
 
3,415 posts, read 4,166,039 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Not at all, one who desires to better themselves and makes the effort to do so is to be commended. Those who make efforts to educate, innovate, or capitalize on some talent they have to reach for dreams and goals that have no limit is the American dream and something I think is great.

Those who look to another, covet their wealth, and constantly compare to themselves making objections concerning the success of that other is greedy.

It is not, nor should it be illegal for a person to be greedy, but greed is often a desire for wealth for the sake of wealth alone to which is why they constantly compare what they have with others and those of that greedy nature often lack the willingness to achieve it by means of truly earning it which is why you often see such greedy people taking short cuts (taking part in scams, manipulations of deals without integrity, stealing, lying to gain advantage, etc...) to obtain it by any measure.

I don't have a problem with those who wish to excel, and aside from the greedy infringing on others through nefarious means to excel, I don't have a problem with them either. After all, individual liberty is the cornerstone of this countries founding and as long as this concept is respected above all others, then what someone does or how they choose to live their lives is their own business.

My point, as I stated is simply that those who sit around going on about rich people needing to be taxed unequally and whining about how much they have, how much they make, in comparison to themselves are simply greedy people who desire wealth, but simply do not wish to put any effort in to obtaining it and so scheme to have it reduced in others.
I am in so much "rep debt"...
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Unread 08-02-2011, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Yellow Brick Road
34,056 posts, read 38,228,125 times
Reputation: 16980
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Um, the daughter isnt rich, her parents are
Exactly. Gauging how "the rich" feel about life, their work, their finances . . . and measuring their character based on the immature, entitled attitudes of their kids . . . is the CLUELESS aspect of all this.

Of course kids who have never had to work for anything and always lived a sheltered, privileged life at home are clueless about how much money it takes to "live."

Once they get out and have to fend for themselves, they are gonna realize that money doesn't grow on Daddy trees any longer and they will understand that it isn't easy to have a savings account for emergencies. For most folks, coming up with several hundred dollars on the spur of the moment is not as easy as simply writing a check out of a money account - and kids eventually learn that.

This discussion is kinda silly cause everyone knows most people have no understanding of budgets and the value of work until they get out on their own and have to take care of themselves.
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Unread 08-03-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Pacific Northwest
1,010 posts, read 519,335 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Perhaps it might help to view it from their perspective.

Those people who are adept at creating and growing wealth. They have self-discipline, exercise both common sense and practical sense, as well as displaying foresight and are willing to make short-term sacrifices to achieve a long-term gain.

Although assumptions aren't always proper, maybe you can forgive them for making the assumption that you are as self-disciplined and brimming with common sense as they are.

Your typical grabasstic American is like: Me want McMansion. Me want McMansion now! Me sign bad loan for McMansion. Me have HELOC. Me want Plasma TV. Me want NetFlix. Me want Starsux. Me want free health care. Me got 2nd Mortgage for credit cards.

The "rich" are different: Even though I don't really want to do so, I'll continue to live in this apartment for 5 years, save my money and then purchase an affordable home, because I will benefit in the long-term.

Your typical grabasstic American will purchase a $250,000 McMansion with 0% down at 6.5 % for 30 years and as a consequence of their stupidity, desire for instant self-gratification, and refusal to make a short-term sacrifice for a long term gain, and they will pay $318,000 in interest, which is more than twice the price of the house.

Does that make sense? Why would you want to buy something twice? Because that is exactly what you're doing.

Then of course later you have to sell the McMansion for $650,000 because they have to get at least $568,000 in order to make any semblance of a "profit," and when the McMansion is only valued at $450,000 and they're poised to take a huge loss, they will blame everyone but themselves for their ignorance, short-sightedness, lack of intelligence and lack of self-discipline.

Is any of this ringing a bell?

The financially mature and intelligent person, ie "the rich" would save up money and put 25% to 35% down on their $250,000 McMansion and pay only $79,956 in interest. The "rich" person can then sell the home later for $450,000 which is the same price the Stupid Class idiot has his McMansion for sale, and still make a profit of...

....$120,044, while the your typical grabasstic idiot takes a loss of $118,000.

The "rich" then take the $238,905 in savings in interest from their home that they didn't pay because of their short-sightedness and lack of self-discipline, and parlay that into $762,505 through investments, and $762,505 is what you would get by just putting the money into a very simple uncomplicated investment vehicle like a pass-book savings account.

So the "rich" person ends up with $120,044 plus $762,505 or $882,549 in profits while the idiot takes a loss of $356,905.

And then you sit around and wonder why the "rich" are "rich." Well, it's because they don't act like a stupid idiot.

How many $Hundreds or $Thousands do you literally throw away every year on credit card interest? It's only a few hundred. Yeah, well that's a very poor attitude. Every penny counts.

The simple fact is you make bad financial decisions every single second of every single day of your adult life.

Your friend with the broken washing machine should have not less than 6 months worth of living expenses and costs saved up in the bank, and should be able to go out purchase a new washing machine with cash.

And if your friend can't do that, then it's because your friend is stupid and has made bad financial decisions.
Your post is very thoughtful and I appreciate your thoughts but I have to disagree with the bolded.

As I said before, my friend worked 3 jobs at the time to not only care for her home but also to pay it's mortgage. Most of her money went into the home. She (like myself) isn't into status symbols or any of that crap (keeping up with the Joneses). Because of her ability to work hard at minimum wage slow death jobs, her credit was such that she could purchase a small modest home.

One of the fallacies in this country is that everyone should be able to save. This is just not true or possible.

My friend is one of the most intelligent people I know. Your calling her stupid is an incredible insult because all you see is what you've been programmed to see and assume.

Another thing people need to realize is that there are different kinds of smart. Not all of them fall under the "ability to make a spitload of money" category. Many don't know how to save or make good financial decisions because they weren't shown the way by their parents.

However they may be incredibly smart and knowledgable on a variety of other subjects. Non of this should be downplayed simply because they haven't been able (as yet) to amass a huge collection of useless bits of green paper.
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