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I'm not an official "liberal" because I believe in our right to personal gun possession without too much governmental interference in that right, and I'm for the death penalty, and a few other things that most conservatives support, but I don't get how your mind works either, so I guess I qualify as a liberal in some sense.
Let me lay it out for you. A person does a crime, gets caught, goes to jail. They do their time and pay their debt to society.
When they get out they apply for a job at an employer that does background checks. Tamy, the 23 year old in HR, has never been to a prison, maybe has never even seen one, except in some pretty pictures on TV. Tamy reads the ex-offenders background report. You can guess what she thinks. It is only then that the ex-offenders record becomes an issue in regards to employment.
There are no job counselors in prison, so your record doesn't impact your job prospects there, only in the so called real world.
Pretty clear?
I understand what you are saying about "paying one's debt to society" but that is simply meaningless phrase that someone made up along the way. Once you are a felon, it follows you all your life and it would be the rare person, indeed, who didn't question WHY a person had a prison record, as it says something about the person's character. If you have that felony b/c of drug use, then most folks can overlook that, as long as you aren't a crackhead or shooting up heroin NOW. But a violent crime is gonna get you very little compassion from anybody except momma.
Secondly, your premise about the young girl is HR is waaaaaay off. HR employees have no discretion about hiring and firing except insofar as adhering to company policies. If it is the company policy to reject anyone w/ a felony, then HR personnel will do just that and throw your resume in the trashcan. If a company asks for that info, then you can bet they have a policy against hiring felons.
So it is not a matter of a felony offense only being an issue if some young girl gets intimidated by it. It is a matter of company policy.
Needless to say, with America’s criminal justice system primed to incarcerate Black men, in particular, the impact of the mandatory sentencing and strict drug laws is being felt heavily in Black communities from coast to coast. Of the 2.1 million people incarcerated in jails and prisons in 2005, 548,300 were Black males between the ages of 20 and 39. Put another way, 4.7 percent of all Black males in the United States were incarcerated, compared to 0.7 of the White males.
The bolded belief, IMO, is a huge part of the problem. The system is not "primed to incarcerate" blacks, and if the impact of mandatory sentences and drug laws are "being felt heavily" in the black community...who's fault is that?
It's just deflecting personal responsibility.
I think libs forget the saying "don't do the crime if you can't do the time." "The time" also includes whatever comes AFTER jail when you can't find a job or housing, etc.
At the request of a leftwing civil rights group, the government agency that enforces employment discrimination is considering outlawing criminal background checks as a tool to screen job applicants because it presents a hiring barrier for minorities.
I don't understand how you want these people to be a help to society if they can't even get a job. I understand they put themselves in that situation. If they don't get a job they will most likely result back to the crime. I've seen it happen.
I don't think the situation is so black and white like some people in here portray.
It should be up to the employer how they want to proceed after finding out about a black mark on a background check.
My restaurant's employment application asks if someone has committed a felony (we don't care about misdemeanors...we also don't actually a check, either). If they are not honest and we find out later, we can fire them. But usually they are honest and it's not necessarily a "hiring barrier." It depends on what the crime was and how long ago it was. If they just got out of jail for attempted murder...um, no. But if it was 10 years ago and they got busted with some drugs and did their time, that's not a problem in our book.
See here's how I see the problem. if you are a criminal and you get caught, you do the time.
<snip>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner
Forget the fear of "the other" for a moment. Whatever happened to the idea that if you do the time, you're done with that issue in your life? What about the concept of rehabilitation?
<snip>
You both have good points but I have a totally different one. I personally think jail should be reserved for people who can change violent ways (punishment and they will not want to reoffend), and prison should be for people who just need locked up for life.
I don't think people should go to jail for drugs, prostitution, anything like that. Violent crimes, yes. Not sure where I stand on embezzlement and that kind of thing, now that it's been brought up in this thread.
Anyway, all of us share the point that if prison was a different system, there would be no need for background checks b/c prison/jail would correct whatever problems.
But, until the system is reformed, I have no problem with background checks. As an employer, I need to know if someone has a tendency toward violence or something like that before I'm going to hire him or her.
I'm not getting this incentive thing. I don't think most people go to the local law library and research the law before deciding which ones to break, if any. I also think that when they get caught, most people have no idea what the penalty is for breaking that law, and in other cases when they do know, I don't think they expect to be caught. But that is just my opinion. Your's is obviously that people know more, and do things based on a reasonable assessment of punishment/gain. I only wish that were true. Than their actions would make more sense, at least to me.
Any idiot can figure out that having a criminal record is not a good thing for their future. They don't take the time to think about it but any ol' Joe should know, at least in the back of their mind, that crime is not going to help them get anywhere in life, unless their goal is to maybe be the head of a gang or something.
First of all, getting hired for a job means someone is making decisions and they can set up the criteria however they feel is reasonable. What they are most looking for is someone who is qualified, but at the same time, they have to be concerned about liability issues, as well.
Your way of looking at the world seems to be based on some sort of relativism wh/ may work for your world view but it isn't reality.
There are many of us who feel decriminalizing drug possession would be a wise move, but let's revisit this conversation 5 years after that happens = and see how much impact that had on incarceration.
Where I live, the proportion of whites to minorities is almost equal. And we have a black mayor and black Chief of Police. Yet, most crime is committed by blacks. And most of the time, the mug shots are of young black males who are repeat offenders - and they are not drug-related crimes. And the thing is - this town is known for pleading down offenses, so basically, repeat offenders have probably been given chance after chance to "get it straight" and stop w/ the criminal behavior. It is not like whites are simply not being convicted! And it isn't like crimes go unsolved, thus meaning a white person possibly committed the crime and just "got lucky." The sad facts are . . . we have more young black males committing violent crime than young white males. Now, if that is a fault of society, then let's discuss it, but it sure as heck is not a matter of whites getting a special dispensation to avoid jail time.
In addition, anyone who thinks prisons rehab criminals has not spent time around prisons. I used to think that, too, until I studied the penal system. Prisons are basically warehouses.
Credit checks suck, especially in these hard economic times and I personally find it very disturbing that some employers do credit checks.
At least we agree on credit checks. They will tell you that they do them to see if you will steal, or to see if you are "financially responsible", but since they are not trained to interpret the results of the background check, I think they just like to see other peoples problems. When I hire someone, I'd rather hire someone with a family that has bills and needs the job, rather than some kid with no responsibilities and no bills. I find the family guy with lots of bills to be a far better worker. So what if he's missed a few mortgage payments?
I've spent time "around prisons" trying to counsel prisoners on having an exit strategy from incarceration, and where they can find (mostly) private and non-profit resources they can use when they get out, to find housing and possibly some modest level of employment. So whatever planet I'm living on (not yours from what you say), I think I know something about this topic. You would not believe the waste of talent sitting in your nearby prison. But the worse part is that the companies that employ them in prison for a few dollars a week (no minimum wage in prison) will not hire them when they get out.
There used to be rehab programs, good libraries, school opportunities, etc in prisons, but not anymore. They are the exception now, due to budget cutting. Now you get bus fare back to the same place you were arrested in, that's it.
So I agree that our system now is little more than warehousing, and a breeding ground for hardened criminals, but it doesn't have to be that way, and it shouldn't be if we all realize that most of them are getting out, and will be/are in a neighborhood near you.
Some people do still manage to rehabilitate themselves, or maybe they didn't need to be in prison at all, but were involved in a victimless crime (often related to drug addiction) with mandatory minimums that leaves the judge no options. In any case, having paid their time, they shoudn't be stigmatized for the rest of their lives or dependency on your tax money or crime will be their only options. Repeat offenders are given NOTHING to prevent them from going back to prison (we don't owe them anything, but we owe it to ourselves to try and keep them from going back). Once in the system, it is very hard to stay out.
Most crimes are not committed by blacks. Blacks commit crime out of proportion to their percentage of society, but whites outnumber blacks in total crime. Just look it up, then you'll know. Blacks also have lower academic achivement, higher unemployment, especially young black males, (even with the same education), go to prison more often than whites and for longer, for the same crime. So yes this is about race.
Whites do not "get lucky". Whites have more money, can afford bail, can afford a private attirney, can afford private rehab, etc. Money makes a big difference in the outcome of your case, and whites facing prison have more of it than the average black person facing prison.
I don't object to an employer deciding on what is fair and resonable in their hiring practices. What I object to is having your employment decision at least partly based on an HR person who is not trained to interpret the results of a background check in a fair and consistant manner.
Any idiot can figure out that having a criminal record is not a good thing for their future. They don't take the time to think about it but any ol' Joe should know, at least in the back of their mind, that crime is not going to help them get anywhere in life, unless their goal is to maybe be the head of a gang or something.
Any idiot can figure out that a lot of people who are caught for criminal conduct are young. It has already been proven that young people, having immature brains, do not link cause and effect very well, and do some very foolish things.
Also, if you are a young black male, of whatever education level you have achieved, you already are facing unemployment rates that are double to 4 times higher than whites. Security guards follow you whenever you enter a store. Malls will ask you and your friends to leave, and not come back. Police will stop you and question you constantly for no apparent reason, or they will show you pictures and ask you if you know them, because being black, you must know all the other blacks in the area. I've heard these stories over and over. Imagine that being your experiance each day.
In some areas there are very few opportunities for minorities to get a job, or get a good education. All the things that you take for granted are closed off from these folks.
If you don't have hope, and you see the gang bangers riding around in nice cars and passing out cash, it can seem pretty good to a young person with limited experiance and no future, to adapt a life of criminal behavior. That's not an excuse for anything, but in those circumstances it is much easier to see how it happens.
Any idiot can figure out that a lot of people who are caught for criminal conduct are young. It has already been proven that young people, having immature brains, do not link cause and effect very well, and do some very foolish things.
Also, if you are a young black male, of whatever education level you have achieved, you already are facing unemployment rates that are double to 4 times higher than whites.
Unemployment rates are higher, but the same number of employment opportunities are there.
Security guards follow you whenever you enter a store.
You mean, Security guards may fallow you when you enter a store, just the same as if it was a white kid dressed in goth
Malls will ask you and your friends to leave, and not come back.
Well, yes, when you do something wrong in the mall, you should be escorted away and trespassed from there.
Police will stop you and question you constantly for no apparent reason, or they will show you pictures and ask you if you know them, because being black, you must know all the other blacks in the area.
If you are looking suspicious yes they are going to question you, just like they do to white people.
showing pictures and asking if you know the person, well, hmmm.... they do that in most neighborhoods where a crime is committed, no matter the racial make up of the area. Canvassing and questioning helps solve many cases. Also, if there was whites living in the neighborhood, i bet they would get shown the picture also.
I've heard these stories over and over. Imagine that being your experiance each day.
In some areas there are very few opportunities for minorities to get a job, or get a good education. All the things that you take for granted are closed off from these folks.
There are the same opportunities, it is just that many don't take them.
If you don't have hope, and you see the gang bangers riding around in nice cars and passing out cash, it can seem pretty good to a young person with limited experiance and no future, to adapt a life of criminal behavior. That's not an excuse for anything, but in those circumstances it is much easier to see how it happens.
there is hope, the problem is people like you telling them that there is no hope and telling them they are disadvantaged and need help
At least we agree on credit checks. They will tell you that they do them to see if you will steal, or to see if you are "financially responsible", but since they are not trained to interpret the results of the background check, I think they just like to see other peoples problems. When I hire someone, I'd rather hire someone with a family that has bills and needs the job, rather than some kid with no responsibilities and no bills. I find the family guy with lots of bills to be a far better worker. So what if he's missed a few mortgage payments?
I've spent time "around prisons" trying to counsel prisoners on having an exit strategy from incarceration, and where they can find (mostly) private and non-profit resources they can use when they get out, to find housing and possibly some modest level of employment. So whatever planet I'm living on (not yours from what you say), I think I know something about this topic. You would not believe the waste of talent sitting in your nearby prison. But the worse part is that the companies that employ them in prison for a few dollars a week (no minimum wage in prison) will not hire them when they get out.
There used to be rehab programs, good libraries, school opportunities, etc in prisons, but not anymore. They are the exception now, due to budget cutting. Now you get bus fare back to the same place you were arrested in, that's it.
So I agree that our system now is little more than warehousing, and a breeding ground for hardened criminals, but it doesn't have to be that way, and it shouldn't be if we all realize that most of them are getting out, and will be/are in a neighborhood near you.
Some people do still manage to rehabilitate themselves, or maybe they didn't need to be in prison at all, but were involved in a victimless crime (often related to drug addiction) with mandatory minimums that leaves the judge no options. In any case, having paid their time, they shoudn't be stigmatized for the rest of their lives or dependency on your tax money or crime will be their only options. Repeat offenders are given NOTHING to prevent them from going back to prison (we don't owe them anything, but we owe it to ourselves to try and keep them from going back). Once in the system, it is very hard to stay out.
Most crimes are not committed by blacks. Blacks commit crime out of proportion to their percentage of society, but whites outnumber blacks in total crime. Just look it up, then you'll know. Blacks also have lower academic achivement, higher unemployment, especially young black males, (even with the same education), go to prison more often than whites and for longer, for the same crime. So yes this is about race.
Whites do not "get lucky". Whites have more money, can afford bail, can afford a private attirney, can afford private rehab, etc. Money makes a big difference in the outcome of your case, and whites facing prison have more of it than the average black person facing prison.
I don't object to an employer deciding on what is fair and resonable in their hiring practices. What I object to is having your employment decision at least partly based on an HR person who is not trained to interpret the results of a background check in a fair and consistant manner.
Actually, I agree with the majority of what you have said.
I couldn't tell from your post that you had an extensive background working directly with prison populations and the penal system in general.
So I agree with your concerns about employment after prison time is up.
However, I will have to disagree w/ you as far as crime here in my region. DoJ figures demonstrate that blacks do commit VIOLENT crime more often than whites.
Here is a site but I can't find a citation spefically re: crime/race Crime In North Carolina
However, I have linked to that info on C-D in the past, so I know it exists somewhere. This is a blog, but I think the charts are correct:
Back to the hiring situation . . . I agree that prisons SHOULD be rehabilitating prisoners by teaching them skills and also by having some arrangement for employing folks who successfully demonstrate competency in those skills. Also, folks should be able to get further education while in prison (and I do know that GED programs are commonly offered - and sometimes, online college courses).
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So who is in the real world?
