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Old 08-16-2011, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Metairie, La.
1,156 posts, read 1,793,779 times
Reputation: 775

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Because I have heard these "arguments" my entire life. They invariably rely on twisted facts, irrelevancies, and even outright falsehoods.

Anyone who examines the basic facts can easily see the atomic bomb was not only more than justified, but also necessary. Additionally, and more importanly, it worked. It worked brilliantly.

A viscous enemy went from preparing for a valiant last stand that would have featured children suicide bombers and casualties in the hundreds of thousands if not millions to an unconditional surrender that saved lives and began an era of cooperation, prosperity, and ultimately reconcilliation.

In most academic circles they refer to that as a "no-brainer." So, seeing that no argument against the bomb holds any water, then I am inevitably left feeling that people who still argue against it have other motives. So it seems with you.

Look, most people are not happy the bomb was used. We all wish the war had never happened. But it did.
Emphasis added.

Your post, especially the highlighted portion, is nothing more than a reiteration of American propaganda from 1945! This was Truman's selling point. This was Truman's justification for using a nuclear device on human beings. Of course Truman wasn't going to tell Americans that he was using the bombs to gain leverage in geopolitics--that sounds too egregious. And...I know you disagree with this here...but politicians lie. That's when you know their lips are moving, or vice versa.

I see your deal here. You are an uncritical and lazy thinker who, when faced with contradictory evidence, hurls insults at those who are just pointing out more insightful interpretations. These more insightful interpretations try to analyze the propaganda and simplify it. Translation: you are a poor historian because well-trained, academic historians don't accept propaganda at face value.

The reason Truman ordered the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was to show up the Soviets--to show up the rest of the world--to demonstrate American power so nobody would F with us--so the U.S. could dominate the post-war world. That's a no-brainer and about 99% of all academic historians agree with the aforementioned interpretation.

You should read Preponderance of Power by Leffler, but then again, that'd conflict with your poor reasoning and you couldn't have that, now could you?
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:12 PM
 
376 posts, read 662,954 times
Reputation: 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene View Post
Well, war is hell, isn't it?

Dropping the bomb saved American lives and ended the war, right quick. When your country is at war, that is really the first priority.

Think Germany wouldn't have done the same if they were able?
the biggest lie that has ever been told. it's well documented that the japanese were about to quit anyway. it also doesn't help that the u.s. was trying to show its muscles against russia by dropping that nuke. it's sad that to this day, american civilians have to be in constant fear of the possible retailiation that might be coming towards us for this and other terrorists activities our government has done to others.
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:28 PM
 
1,020 posts, read 1,705,508 times
Reputation: 755
Quote:
Originally Posted by the nation is still angry View Post
the biggest lie that has ever been told. it's well documented that the japanese were about to quit anyway. it also doesn't help that the u.s. was trying to show its muscles against russia by dropping that nuke. it's sad that to this day, american civilians have to be in constant fear of the possible retailiation that might be coming towards us for this and other terrorists activities our government has done to others.
More deep thoughts from a well-known historian.
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Old 08-16-2011, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Metairie, La.
1,156 posts, read 1,793,779 times
Reputation: 775
So a few responders on this thread do not accept the idea that the U.S. had other reasons for using atomic weapons on Japan--reasons other than saving the lives of U.S. military personnel because using atomic bombs would bring a speedy conclusion to the war.

I think these claims by folks like Moth and Tinman, among others, is a wrongheaded view. Just because I think they're wrong does not mean that I'm a fascist or a communist or any other "'ist." It doesn't make anyone else an "'ist" of any kind. There are numerous historical analyses of Truman's decision-making. Here's a short list of some of the academic scholarship produced by historians and political scientists that break down Truman's reasons for being the first world leader to use nuclear devices in wartime:

Downes, Targeting Civilians in War, Cornell U. Press, 2008.
Tillman, Whirlwind: the Airwar against Japan, Simon and Schuster, 2010.
Leffler, A Preponderance of Power, Stanford U. Press, 1992 (Bancroft Award Winner).
Cooper, "Truman's Motivations: Using the Atomic Bomb in the Second World War," 2006 (PDF available on-line).
Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb. Random House, 1995.
________, Atomic Diplomacy, 1985.
Bix, Herbert P. "Japan's Delayed Surrender: A Reinterpretation." Hiroshima in History and
Memory. Michael J. Hogan ed. Cambridge University Press, 1996.
Hasegawa, Racing the Enemy, Harvard U. Press, 2005.
Kerr, Flames Over Tokyo, D.I. Fine, 1991.
Boyer, By the Bomb's Early Light, UNC Press, 1985.
_____, Some sort of Peace, Cambridge U. Press, 1989.
Brooks, Behind Japan's Surrender, McGraw Hill, 1968.
Chappell, Before the Bomb, U. Press of Kentucky, 1997.
Fogelman, ed., Hiroshima: The Decision to use the A-Bomb, Scribner, 1964.
Hershberg, James B. Conant: Harvard to Hiroshima and the Making of the Nuclear Age, Knopf, 1993.
Lawren, The General and the Bomb: A Biography of General Leslie R. Groves, Director of the Manhattan Project, Dodd & Mead, 1988.
Mee, Meeting at Potsdam, M. Evans, 1975.
Nitze, From Hiroshima to Glasnost, Grove Weidenfeld, 1989.

I could go on. I'm familiar with most of these books because each one was on my comprehensive exams list. In every book listed here, and in many others, the author(s) and or participant(s) point out that the U.S. bombed Japan for a variety of reasons. Foremost among the rationale for using atomic weapons on Japan include staking a leverage claim in the post-war world. Saving American lives was a "selling point" rather than the main justification--as demonstrated by each author and/or participant listed above.

So for folks like Moth and Tinman to sit on their armchairs and to casually state that all of these folks listed here (and many others not listed in this post) are dead wrong and likely fascists who hate America is entirely dogmatic, wrongheaded, and arrogant.

In other words, you need to brush up on your atomic age and WWII historiography.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:34 PM
 
1,123 posts, read 773,396 times
Reputation: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by the nation is still angry View Post
the biggest lie that has ever been told. it's well documented that the japanese were about to quit anyway. it also doesn't help that the u.s. was trying to show its muscles against russia by dropping that nuke. it's sad that to this day, american civilians have to be in constant fear of the possible retailiation that might be coming towards us for this and other terrorists activities our government has done to others.
I am part japanese, and you simply have no clue. Japan did not surrender even after we endured the first atomic bomb, and would have fought to the last blade of grass - until the Emperor ordered us to stop. PERIOD.

An invasion of Japan would have cost over 100,000 american GI lives and probably 1 million japanese. It wasn't until the Emperor overruled the general command and ordered a surrender that the army was willing to cease hostilities. Stop buying into the anti-american leftist crap...
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,711 posts, read 13,434,967 times
Reputation: 4185
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterpetron View Post
I am part japanese, and you simply have no clue. Japan did not surrender even after we endured the first atomic bomb, and would have fought to the last blade of grass - until the Emperor ordered us to stop. PERIOD.

Stop buying into the anti-american leftist crap
I'm not interested if you're Japanese or Martian, I'm interested in the facts. Yes, the people obeyed the Emperor. Had the Emperor been able to make peace terms in July as he hoped, they would've obeyed him in July as they did in August. The peace terms were not made then, or even discussed, because the Allies slammed the door in his face. That's the point everyone keeps missing.

BTW, what does "leftist" have to do with anything? The war was between far-right Japan and the mostly center-left allies. So why is condemnation of one of the allies "leftist"? What does the morality of bombing civilian targets have to do with taxes or ownership of the means of production? If anyone can explain that in anything like human logic, I'd love to know the answer.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
12,885 posts, read 13,193,838 times
Reputation: 13823
God Bless Harry Truman. He probably saved my Dad's life.

Wish we had more democrats like him today.
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,711 posts, read 13,434,967 times
Reputation: 4185
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro View Post
Wish we had more democrats like him today.
We have an unmanageable number of sociopathic scumbags in both parties already.
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Old 08-17-2011, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
17,531 posts, read 24,611,297 times
Reputation: 9975
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Then it's our responsibility (our leaders' responsibility) that the war continued, and that people on all sides continued to die even more senselessly than those who died before the offer was made.
No we and our Allies had agreed that no one would accept anything but an unconditional surrender. If you want to rewrite history to make the allies the bad guys feel welcome but remember the millions of Chinese who died at the hands of your Japanese VICTIMS
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
12,885 posts, read 13,193,838 times
Reputation: 13823
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
We have an unmanageable number of sociopathic scumbags in both parties already.
Of which Truman was not one.
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