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Old 08-25-2011, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,874,522 times
Reputation: 886

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
If the close friend didn't put it in those exact words, then it seems you are reading into his words what YOU want to read. You can't change your preference.

I think it's interesting that you take such a passive-aggressive approach. It's someone else that makes you oppose things, not your own choice to oppose those things. If you turned out to be gay, it would be someone else who coerced or manipulated you into those preferences. If your children turn out to be gay, someone else had to have turned them gay. Is that what bigotry is, just about assigning blame to someone else, a need to blame others? The more I think about it, the more that seems to be the case.
Um, no.

Because he did not use those explicit words does not mean I am projecting my interpretation on his words. This was not a passing comment but a conversation.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:25 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1964 View Post
Um, no.

Because he did not use those explicit words does not mean I am projecting my interpretation on his words. This was not a passing comment but a conversation.
I appreciate what you are saying, but the fact is that what excites us sexually is not a matter of choice. Acting on what excites us is a choice. Your gay friend might be bi-sexual, and therefore have even more choices available to him, because he or she is excited by things that go beyond gender. Or your gay friend might be regretting other choices, such as sharing his or her homosexuality with friends and family, and the repercussions that resulted. But the things that excite us, that cause our hearts to beat a little faster, that cause that hollow feeling in the pits of our stomach, that make our eyes dilate and our body temperature to go up, that's not a choice. Choice only enters into it when I choose to act on my feelings of excitement, or to ignore them.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,874,522 times
Reputation: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I appreciate what you are saying, but the fact is that what excites us sexually is not a matter of choice. Acting on what excites us is a choice. Your gay friend might be bi-sexual, and therefore have even more choices available to him, because he or she is excited by things that go beyond gender. Or your gay friend might be regretting other choices, such as sharing his or her homosexuality with friends and family, and the repercussions that resulted. But the things that excite us, that cause our hearts to beat a little faster, that cause that hollow feeling in the pits of our stomach, that make our eyes dilate and our body temperature to go up, that's not a choice. Choice only enters into it when I choose to act on my feelings of excitement, or to ignore them.
I appreciate your opinion but respectfully disagree.
I'm not being sarcastic, I do respectfully disagree.
I believe our social conditioning has much to do with it.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:45 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1964 View Post
I appreciate your opinion but respectfully disagree.
I'm not being sarcastic, I do respectfully disagree.
I believe our social conditioning has much to do with it.
That's okay. We can disagree. But I think that it's important to realize that when you believe the way you do, in the power of social conditioning being able to substantively change who we are, that that belief goes well beyond just sexuality, and has wide-ranging implications. I personally believe that the core of who we are is not subject to being changed, by social conditioning or other means. There are things about who I am that are immutable. My choices on how to express who I am may be influenced, even powerfully influenced by social conditioning, and I think that that is why so many humans behave differently in different situations. We have a work persona, and a dating persona, a family persona. We share a very different self with people we are intimate with, than with people we are simply acquainted with. You know how people feel when their boundaries are violated, how invaded they feel? We all try to control when and where and how we reveal ourselves, our personas. When that control is taken away, our boundaries are violated. I don't think that this would be an issue if who we are and how we act was simply the result of social conditioning.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:47 AM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,439,563 times
Reputation: 12596
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1964 View Post
I appreciate your opinion but respectfully disagree.
I'm not being sarcastic, I do respectfully disagree.
I believe our social conditioning has much to do with it.
On what basis do you hold your opinion? Have you met gay people? Have you experienced homosexual feelings? How did you come to the conclusion that homosexuality is a result of social conditioning?
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
25,826 posts, read 20,653,757 times
Reputation: 14818
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Teenagers most CERTAINLY are children...
And yet, we let them drive cars and even join the military.

Seriously, is driving safer than reading fiction?
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:53 AM
 
4,049 posts, read 5,023,359 times
Reputation: 1333
It might be the only way to get the students to actually read!
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
25,826 posts, read 20,653,757 times
Reputation: 14818
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbobobbo View Post
I have not read this thread past page 12 yet, wow is it popular!

One thing that keeps being repeated is the assertion that these books were not only assigned to high school students, but also assigned, recommended, or required for middle school students. The age of 10 keeps popping up in the discussion.

The article in the Blaze mentions mentions middle school students. It refers to Fox News as a source of the story. The linked Fox story clearly states





But they also state



They refer to the Gloucester County Times as the source and link to it.

The Gloucester County Times makes no mention of middle school. The list was issued at Williamstown High School, "Norwegian Wood" was a choice on the list for a 10th grade honors English class, and "Tweak" was a choice on the list for a 12th grade honors English class.

There is no mention that the books were suggested for middle schoolers. Considering Fox News has been guilty of putting (D) next to names of Republicans caught in sex scandals, and more "errors" like that, I don't trust them when their facts differ from the source they cite, and they don't offer another source to back up the details that aren't in the cited source.

I'm about a third of the way through "Norwegian Wood" now. No homosexuality yet, but heterosexual sex, although not written in a lurid smutty way. Will give a full review when I'm done.

Thanks very much for the reality check.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,874,522 times
Reputation: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
That's okay. We can disagree. But I think that it's important to realize that when you believe the way you do, in the power of social conditioning being able to substantively change who we are, that that belief goes well beyond just sexuality, and has wide-ranging implications. I personally believe that the core of who we are is not subject to being changed, by social conditioning or other means. There are things about who I am that are immutable. My choices on how to express who I am may be influenced, even powerfully influenced by social conditioning, and I think that that is why so many humans behave differently in different situations. We have a work persona, and a dating persona, a family persona. We share a very different self with people we are intimate with, than with people we are simply acquainted with. You know how people feel when their boundaries are violated, how invaded they feel? We all try to control when and where and how we reveal ourselves, our personas. When that control is taken away, our boundaries are violated. I don't think that this would be an issue if who we are and how we act was simply the result of social conditioning.
Well, to provide more detail I do believe there may be a genetic proclivity for sexual preference coupled with social conditioning - a combination of nature and nurture rather than a binary switch.

And yes, this is certainly opinion and conjecture on my part coupled with personal experience which I will be the first to note is anectdotal.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,874,522 times
Reputation: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
On what basis do you hold your opinion? Have you met gay people? Have you experienced homosexual feelings? How did you come to the conclusion that homosexuality is a result of social conditioning?
Go back and read the history.
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