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Well, to provide more detail I do believe there may be a genetic proclivity for sexual preference coupled with social conditioning - a combination of nature and nurture rather than a binary switch.
And yes, this is certainly opinion and conjecture on my part coupled with personal experience which I will be the first to note is anectdotal.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary as well. Many, many gay people report feeling like they were born gay. Since there's anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the issue, we have to turn to empirical evidence. For empirical evidence, I suggest you do a quick search of posts by Jaymax or PITTSON2SARASOTA. Both posters have posted tons of links that give empirical evidence supporting the idea that homosexuality is not a matter of conditioning.
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
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Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary as well. Many, many gay people report feeling like they were born gay. Since there's anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the issue, we have to turn to empirical evidence. For empirical evidence, I suggest you do a quick search of posts by Jaymax or PITTSON2SARASOTA. Both posters have posted tons of links that give empirical evidence supporting the idea that homosexuality is not a matter of conditioning.
I will look through the links, but I'm skeptical of claims about empirical evidence either way. I believe if there truly were empirical evidence as controversial as this topic is, it would be common knowledge.
Well, to provide more detail I do believe there may be a genetic proclivity for sexual preference coupled with social conditioning - a combination of nature and nurture rather than a binary switch.
And yes, this is certainly opinion and conjecture on my part coupled with personal experience which I will be the first to note is anectdotal.
I don't dismiss anecdotal evidence. I understand that scientists are rightfully skeptical of anecdotal evidence, preferring statistics and observable phenomena that can be reproduced, but when it comes to human beings, often I see anecdotal evidence being given short shrift. Clearly, anecdotes are highly subjective, we often tend to hear and see what we expect or want to see, rather than what is objectively there. And that was what I was trying to point out when I commented on your conversation with your gay friend, and the fact that you shared that your friend didn't use the "exact words". Objectively, the "exact words" are what's needed to make the point you were trying to make. But subjectively, the anecdote tells us a lot about you. That you have gay friends, and that they are REAL friends, not just acquaintances, because the conversation was substantive and intimate. That this is an issue that you are curious about, otherwise the conversation would never have taken place. That you have strong feelings about it, which your friend was aware of, since your friend couched his feelings in a way that you would be comfortable with. So, I don't dismiss anecdotal evidence at all. And I respect that you've been honest and forthright about your feelings on this thread, especially given that it's an issue that stirs such strong feelings.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary as well. Many, many gay people report feeling like they were born gay. Since there's anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the issue, we have to turn to empirical evidence. For empirical evidence, I suggest you do a quick search of posts by Jaymax or PITTSON2SARASOTA. Both posters have posted tons of links that give empirical evidence supporting the idea that homosexuality is not a matter of conditioning.
I would think that the primary argument against the idea that homosexuality is a matter of conditioning is that society clearly marginalizes homosexuals. Why would a society condition people to engage in behavior that the society condemns? How would a society condition people to engage in behaviour that the society condemns? Social conditioning is all about conformity. The fact that we all find ways to rebel against that conformity is the best argument that we, human beings, are not the products of social conditioning, but that we are individuals, born individuals, with preferences and proclivities that define us. Social conditioning can impact how we express our individuality, but it cannot take away that individuality.
Last edited by DC at the Ridge; 08-25-2011 at 11:40 AM..
I would think that the primary argument against the idea that homosexuality is not a matter of conditioning is that society clearly marginalizes homosexuals. Why would a society condition people to engage in behavior that the society condemns? How would a society condition people to engage in behaviour that the society condemns? Social conditioning is all about conformity. The fact that we all find ways to rebel against that conformity is the best argument that we, human beings, are not the products of social conditioning, but that we are individuals, born individuals, with preferences and proclivities that define us. Social conditioning can impact how we express our individuality, but it cannot take away that individuality.
I totally agree. There are gay people in Iran, where they can get killed for being gay.
Why would anyone in their right mind choose homosexuality in a place like Iran?
Actually yes I have.
A close friend didn't put it in those exact words but he did tell me he wondered if perhaps he should have went the other way.
As for chastising others about their willful ignorance, you expose your own ignorance and bigotry. You are exactly the type social authoritarian which pushes me to oppose 'gay' legislation.
You assume your own infallibility and intrude upon others to impose your bias.
I believe if coerced or manipulated at an early age to engage in same-sex relations I probably would prefer that to which I was accustomed to.
I'm pretty sure if you asked your friend directly he would tell you it wasn't a choice. I've never met a gay person who has. Neither has any other gay person I've discussed it with. But of course you have an anecdote... And that trumps the actual experience of being gay, right?
So gays were molested? that's your new justification? I was never manipulated in to it. My parents were staunchly against it (but have since come around).
I'm sorry, you call me a social authoritarian, when you are the one opposing my rights? I find that laughable. I am not telling you to get a gay marriage. I am simply wanting society to accept mine. So you can do whatever you want, but I am restricted-- Yet I am the authoritarian.
Another bigot who feels that diversity should include his freedom to project his bigotry and codify it in to law-- Restricting the freedoms and rights of groups that he doesn't belong to to satisfy his theory based on an anecdote.
Reducing the whole of the novel to just some incidental sex scenes is ignorant.
this may be a "good" book, don't know...but the "incidental sex scenes" have no academic value...it may be great for "entertainment", but I fail to see how discussing such scenes would further a students education....
one complaint was “I don’t think that’s relevant for any teenager"...that parents and others saw no purpose this served....you see, some parents want to give their kids a useful education, not philosophical crap that has no meaning to anything..
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You just demonstrated my point above. These books are about lots of things, but the homophobic OP reduces their meaning to mere pornography .
whether or not these books have "meaning" or not is subjective....my point was that if people defended the need for kids to raise their mathematical, scientific, and historical abilities as their need to read crap like this, well, this country would have no limit...
you do know that a scene takes place between the 13 year old and a 31 year old?.....I am sure he is against that to, does that make him a pedophobic?.....or is homophobia the only thing that can be recognized because "gay feelings" are the only thing that matter?
again, "homophobia" isn't everywhere you look....sometimes people just don't want to be bothered with crap like this.....deal with it...
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I'm done with you, if this is all the insight you can provide into the topic.
what wrong?...did I strike a nerve?.....i don't value pseudo-philosophical,intellectual dribble as much as those "enlighten" liberals?....
and I am sorry, but to this day I still know those who lean to the left get degrees in "liberal arts" and complain that they can't get a job or not making as much as those "greedy right-wingers"..... its ok, at least your more "educated" then us right wing ignorant idiots...feel good about that..
this may be a "good" book, don't know...but the "incidental sex scenes" have no academic value...it may be great for "entertainment", but I fail to see how discussing such scenes would further a students education....
So Shakespeare has no academic value. Gotcha.
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you see, some parents want to give their kids a useful education, not philosophical crap that has no meaning to anything..
That "philosophical crap" actually does have meaning.
It gets the readers to think critically.
Of course, we can't have that! THE KIDS MUST ABIDE MY MY MORALS AND NOT BE INDOCTRINATED WITH COMMON SENSE.
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whether or not these books have "meaning" or not is subjective.
Very true.
If someone is dumb enough to not see the meaning behind the books, then they won't have any meaning.
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again, "homophobia" isn't everywhere you look....sometimes people just don't want to be bothered with crap like this.....deal with it...
Homophobia?
No.
Not in the literal sense, anyways.
Bigotry?
Yes.
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and I am sorry, but to this day I still know those who lean to the left get degrees in "liberal arts"
Which is why this liberal is working towards a degree in business management, right?
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