Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jesus never condemned the government from enforcing law. There is no problem with the justified execution of a convicted criminal. In some cases, it is a necessary thing.
Jesus intervened in a hypocritical, self-righteous religious execution in John 8. That was not the government--it was hypocritical pharisees that he put in their place.
I don't think whether the executioners have a government approval is relevant to the lesson of John 8.
And whether Jesus approved of "enforcing law" is casting a cloud over the issue. The issue is whether Christians can support the existence of the death penalty law in the first place, not whether they support breaking or upholding the law.
To say that Jesus was against executions by hypocritical, self-righteous Pharisees but not our government is, in my opinion, an overly narrow interpretation of the story.
I'm truly curious what the various churches say on this.
What churches say is totally irrelevant.
To the extent that it might be relevant, you should know that prior to 1968 all versions of the "bible" correctly translated the 5th Commandment from Exodus as "Thou shalt not murder," or "You will not commit murder."
All churches in the US supported the Vietnam War except for those that traditionally oppose war, such as the Quakers and the Mennonites.
In 1968, a number of black congregational churches began voicing dissent and they were joined by major black churches like the AME. The UCC was the first "white" church to break away and support the black churches, and then more churches followed.
After that, "bible" versions began appearing with the false and incorrect translation of the 5th Commandment as "Thou shalt not kill."
Quote:
Originally Posted by swerver
I'm no biblical scholar but I'm pretty sure Jesus was against killing anyone, ever.
Well, then you would be wrong.
Matthew 19:16 Now someone came up to him and said, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?” 19:17 He said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 19:18 “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied, “Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19:19 honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
There are 693 commandments. Most people are aware of the first 10 commandments which are referred to as the "10 Commandments."
In the verses following the 10 Commandments, god commands that
Exodus 23:8 You must not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and subverts the words of the righteous.
However, we can cut to the chase:
Exodus 21:12 Whoever strikes someone so that he dies must surely be put to death. 21:13 But if he does not do it with premeditation, but it happens by accident, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee. 21:14 But if a man willfully attacks his neighbor to kill him cunningly, you will take him even from my altar that he may die.
This is a clarification of the 5th Commandment. If you commit murder, then you will be executed.
If you kill someone, for example you're driving down the road and a wasp flies into your car and stings you and you lose control of the car and cross the center-line striking another car and kill all 5 of the occupants in the car, that is not murder. Yes, you did kill them, you caused their deaths, but it was by accident, and your actions were not negligent.
So, Jesus says that you must keep the commandments, all of them, and one of those commandments is that you must use the death penalty on those who commit murder.
Nowhere does Jesus say that you shouldn't execute a murderer.
Let's look at something else Jesus says:
John 18:36 Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.”
Jesus did not preach non-violence, as is very clear here, plus the fact that he over-turned the tables of the money-changers in the Temple, which was a violent act in and of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swerver
I guess I'm just tired of having politicians parade how religious they are, and then demonstrate through their actions the opposite.
The death penalty and christianity are clearly compatible.
Apparently, there is no limit to what you can believe in or do as a Christian. Obviously, you can believe in the death penalty and be a Christian. Since when has being a Christian stopped Christians from doing things that are supposedly un-Christianlike? Hell, you can use the Bible to justify damn near anything at this point. It's all in the interpretation.
Perry like most republicans are just playing to the ignorant evangelical vote.
In their eyes being a "good christian" means to hate gays, be anti-abortion, and watch the Benny Hinn mega-church sermon on tv sunday mornings While at the same time loving violence, war, and execution.
I'd say that the overwhelming number of these individuals that claim to be "good christians" know nothing about christianity and if they did, they would never support a republican ever again.
Tons. He will pretty much lock in the deep south as they will look at him as: "Dat dun dar Perry be a "good christian", he sez he dun likes da bible, I gunna vote fer him!"
You don't have a clue what it means to be a Christian.
I'm an evangelical Christian who does not hate gays, I am anti-abortion, and I think Benny Hinn is a greedy hack stealing money. I abhor violence, think war is bad, but do think that sometimes violence is needed. For the same reason you'd hope the police come quickly (with guns) if your house is being burglarized at 2 am as you hide in the closet, I think sometimes we do need to punish bad guys.
But then, you weren't actually trying to be factual as much as you were trying to take a jab at Christians. The question is why do you have a problem with Christianity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter
Apparently, there is no limit to what you can believe in or do as a Christian. Obviously, you can believe in the death penalty and be a Christian. Since when has being a Christian stopped Christians from doing things that are supposedly un-Christianlike? Hell, you can use the Bible to justify damn near anything at this point. It's all in the interpretation.
Can you explain what is un-Christianlike about the death penalty?
Answer me this: When Jesus was crucified...did he allow the 2 thieves on either side of him to be crucified? Or did he help them down?
You don't have a clue what it means to be a Christian.
I'm an evangelical Christian who does not hate gays, I am anti-abortion, and I think Benny Hinn is a greedy hack stealing money. I abhor violence, think war is bad, but do think that sometimes violence is needed. For the same reason you'd hope the police come quickly (with guns) if your house is being burglarized at 2 am as you hide in the closet, I think sometimes we do need to punish bad guys.
But then, you weren't actually trying to be factual as much as you were trying to take a jab at Christians. The question is why do you have a problem with Christianity?
Can you explain what is un-Christianlike about the death penalty?
Answer me this: When Jesus was crucified...did he allow the 2 thieves on either side of him to be crucified? Or did he help them down?
Jesus had no choice but to allow those thieves to be crucified. What the hell was he going to do? Get down and remove them? Tell me an incident in Biblical times when something like that happened. I'm sure it would be a pretty big story....big enough that the story would still be in circulation til this day.
As for what is un-Christian about the Death Penalty, well, i'm no so sure that i can articulate that. However, the Bible is so contradictory (and so is the interpretation of it) that as i said earlier...you can use the Bible to justify any damn thing.
I always wonder how many of those defending the death penalty - regardless of their religion - could actually kill the person. It is easy to defend it verbally or hide behind a jury. I think a person who is in favor of the death penalty is a hypocrite unless they are willing to shoot or butcher or whatever the person (who might even be innocent anyway) themselves.
I don't give a crap what Jesus or some Jews thought or said 2000 years ago, it was not meant for me, anyway. I care about what is right and wrong.
So, Jesus says that you must keep the commandments, all of them, and one of those commandments is that you must use the death penalty on those who commit murder.
Nowhere does Jesus say that you shouldn't execute a murderer.
This is complete nonsense. Where is the commandment to kill those who have killed. Please remeber Matthew 26:52. He that lives by the sword will surely die by the sword. P
Let's look at something else Jesus says:
John 18:36 Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.”
Jesus did not preach non-violence, as is very clear here, plus the fact that he over-turned the tables of the money-changers in the Temple, which was a violent act in and of itself.
The death penalty and christianity are clearly compatible.
Jesus says so himself as I have proven.[/quote]
This is crazy talk. Where did Jesus preach for violence? Jesus was angry when he flipped the the tables on the money changers, he did not call for them to be beat or killed. Through Jesus we have grace.
Please cite one scripture where Jesus called for someones death for sin.
I'm truly curious what the various churches say on this. I'm no biblical scholar but I'm pretty sure Jesus was against killing anyone, ever. How does this get reconciled? Obv. looking at Rick Perry here.
I guess I'm just tired of having politicians parade how religious they are, and then demonstrate through their actions the opposite. Dems do this too, not just repubs. How many votes is this guy going to get solely because dumb people buy into his "I'm so religious" farce?
I'm a Christian who doesn't like the death penalty, but I have an "it is what it is" attitude about it. I do think you can be a Christian and support it, even though I don't really support it myself.
I have yet to come in contact with a true Christian.
Thats because there is only one true christian.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
