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Old 10-24-2011, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post
ROFLMAO!

You probably think I'm a Baptist because I said I'm Christian. Well ... not exactly.

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I left that church decades ago, but a lot of what I was taught stayed with me. I mostly try to adhere to the 4 gospels. It's mostly my moral compass. I have no time for Paul at all.

Historically, all religions start out as cults: small, unorganized, persecuted, ostracized, etc.

As time goes by, religions "recruit/convert" more people. They become more mainstream, they become hierarchical, very well organized entities. Many seek to influence politics. THAT'S WHEN they cease to be "cults".

When you compare the "kookiness" of mainstream Christianity to the "kookiness" of the Mormon Church they don't exactly line up. To wit,

1. "The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461.)"

2. "Patriarchal marriage involves conditions, responsibilities and obligations which do not exist in monogamy, and there are blessings attached to the faithful observance of that law, if viewed only upon natural principles, which must so far exceed those of monogamy, as the conditions responsibilities and power of increase are greater. This is my view and testimony in relation to this matter. I believe it is a doctrine that should be taught and understood."

Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.30, Joseph F. Smith, July 7, 1878

3. "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them."

Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.268 - p.269, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866

For Christians, the millisecond you say that be Book of Mormon is "more correct" than the Bible you have crossed into blasphemous territory and you have for all legitimate purposes, rejected Christianity. So, even though I don't like Baptists, I can understand why they'd get upset.

The Mormon Church disavowed the practice of plural marriage (polygamy, really), but not the belief in it. It is my understanding that plural marriage is required for "exaltation" into heaven, unless of course, the president of the Church has had a "revelation" lately to change that.

There are other issues as well, but I won't discuss them here.

So, if the LDS Church wants to latch on to mainstream Christianity (to help bolster their legitimacy mostly) they can teach that to their members, but "other" Christians do not have to accept them as part of the Christian tradition because well ... they're not.
I just love how you didn't provide one single solitary doctrinal source. You have misinterpreted LDS doctrine and misrepresented it to others. I suggest you stick to telling people about your beliefs instead of pretending to understand a belief system about which your knowledge on is superficial at best. Furthermore, at least one of your statements appears to be a direct quote (judging from the quotation marks around it), but is not; it is a paraphrase, and a poor one at that. It was also taken completely out of context. I would take the time to counter each of your statements, but this thread isn't the place for such a discussion.

Last edited by Katzpur; 10-24-2011 at 07:56 PM..
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
I would not object to Romney if he were a moderate Mormon, but if he got into office and promoted the business interests of members of his religion over others or started swaying the laws that govern all the people towards radical Mormon beliefs, what a nightmarish thought!
Honestly, he wouldn't do that. For starters, he couldn't. Congress would have to go along with any laws he wanted to enact; do you think they would go for that? I don't. Why would he do that any more than any of the other candidates? Furthermore, Romney's record in Massachusetts is a pretty good indicator that he never has attempted to do such things in the past. Aren't you concerned about Harry Reid trying to do the same thing? I'm afraid I simply do not understand your concern.

Last edited by Katzpur; 10-24-2011 at 07:14 PM..
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:03 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
5,979 posts, read 3,269,664 times
Reputation: 3675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I just love how you didn't provide one single solitary doctrinal source. You have misinterpreted LDS doctrine and misrepresented it to others. I suggest you stick to telling people about your beliefs instead of pretending to understand a belief system about which your knowledge on is superficial at best. Furthermore, at least one of your statements appears to be a direct quote (judging from the quotation marks around it), but is not; it is a paraphrase, and a poor one at that. It was also taken completely out of context. I would take the time to counter each of your statements, but this thread isn't the place for such a discussion.

OK.

I'll tell you what I was taught:

1. Roman Catholic/Christian belief through the ages regardless of denominational labels:

a. Any Scripture writings outside the Bible are not Christian. Christians do not accept any "addendum" to the Bible. God's prophets are mentioned in the Bible. Anybody else who comes along later claiming to be a prophet, is considered a false prophet. This particular point is fundamental, irreconcilable and non-negotiable. Period.

b. Therefore, from the perspective of the Catholic/Christian tradition (almost 2000 years not 200), the Book of Mormon is the word of Joseph Smith and not the word of God. Joseph Smith ceased to be a Christian the day he published the Book of Mormon.

I'm not a religious scholar, but I did spend 12 years in a Roman Catholic School (with nuns ) and 4 years in a Jesuit university. I'm not a Roman Catholic anymore because I have difficulty letting other mortals do my thinking for me. But, I did learn a thing or two about the Christian tradition and, in particular, its history.

I apologize if I did not use a "single, solitary doctrinal source". Upon further reading, I realized your doctrinal sources can change every time a new (LDS) Church president is elected. Maybe that is wrong too? I don't know. Please point me in the right direction. I'd love to find out what those sources are and read them. If you don't want to do so in this forum, feel free to PM me.

Please understand that I don't have an issue with you being a Mormon. I actually lived in Ogden, UT, interacted with many Mormons, and never had an issue with any of them.

I don't particularly like the arrogance of some Baptists/Evangelicals, but I do understand why they get miffed when Mormons say they are a Christian church. I think calling Mormonism a cult was wrong because it has become more mainstream.

In my view, Mormonism is Mormonism and a uniquely American religion.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post
1. Roman Catholic/Christian belief through the ages regardless of denominational labels:

a. Any Scripture writings outside the Bible are not Christian. Christians do not accept any "addendum" to the Bible. God's prophets are mentioned in the Bible. Anybody else who comes along later claiming to be a prophet, is considered a false prophet. This particular point is fundamental, irreconcilable and non-negotiable. Period.
Well, that kind of makes the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds non-Christian then. If they're not an "addendum" to the Bible, I don't know what is. From the LDS perspective, no Church has the right to declare that God is through speaking to us in this day and age. If He is the same yesterday, today and forever, He would not suddenly decide to clam up after communicating with His children for 4000 years. The Bible does, in fact warn of "false prophets." The fact that it does not, however, warn of "prophets" in general, is significant.

Quote:
b. Therefore, from the perspective of the Catholic/Christian tradition (almost 2000 years not 200), the Book of Mormon is the word of Joseph Smith and not the word of God. Joseph Smith ceased to be a Christian the day he published the Book of Mormon.
Whatever. To quote Mother Teresa, "For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It never was between you and them anyway." The upcoming election may very well be between us and them, but in the end, it's only an election.

Quote:
I'm not a religious scholar, but I did spend 12 years in a Roman Catholic School (with nuns ) and 4 years in a Jesuit university. I'm not a Roman Catholic anymore because I have difficulty letting other mortals do my thinking for me. But, I did learn a thing or two about the Christian tradition and, in particular, its history.
I've learned a thing or two about the Christian tradition over the years, too. And it's what I've learned that convinced me that the apostasy (or falling away) Paul prophesied would take place following his death, did in fact happen, and that a restoration, or re-establishment of the original Church would also take place prior to Christ's second coming.

Quote:
I apologize if I did not use a "single, solitary doctrinal source". Upon further reading, I realized your doctrinal sources can change every time a new (LDS) Church president is elected. Maybe that is wrong too? I don't know. Please point me in the right direction. I'd love to find out what those sources are and read them. If you don't want to do so in this forum, feel free to PM me.
Perhaps this will help:

In a 2007 statement issued by the Church, the following guidelines were given as to what constitutes LDS doctrine:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

Quote:
Please understand that I don't have an issue with you being a Mormon. I actually lived in Ogden, UT, interacted with many Mormons, and never had an issue with any of them.
That's nice to hear.

Quote:
I don't particularly like the arrogance of some Baptists/Evangelicals, but I do understand why they get miffed when Mormons say they are a Christian church. I think calling Mormonism a cult was wrong because it has become more mainstream.

In my view, Mormonism is Mormonism and a uniquely American religion.
I agree. Mormonism is indeed unique. The same could have been said for the Church Jesus Christ established. As far as it being an American religion, that isn't the case. It was established in America but more than half of its 14 million adherents live outside the United States today. I'm sure you wouldn't refer to Christianity as a Middle-eastern religion just because that's where it originated.

We don't claim to be part of "traditional," "mainstream," or "orthodox" Christianity. But what we do claim is a strong faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior and a love of His gospel. I don't know how anybody who claims to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only means by which mankind may be reconciled to God can be described as anything other than a Christian. Mormons believe every last word the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ. We worship Him, honor Him and try to live the way He taught we should live. The closest definition we have on what a Christian really is is from Jesus Christ himself when He said, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples -- that ye have love one to another." As far as I'm concerned, Mormons are, by that definition, far better Christians than most of our criticis and enemies are.

Last edited by Katzpur; 10-25-2011 at 10:50 AM..
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
5,979 posts, read 3,269,664 times
Reputation: 3675
The above post is completely off topic. I don't with to incur the wrath of the moderators.

Back to Romney. Right or wrong, fair or unfair, there will be fundamentalists who are not going to vote for Romney because he's a mormon. I don't care what anybody says, there are plenty of folks out there who vote according to what their pastor/preacher tells them. Some people are just like that.

I'm not voting for Romney because he's just George W. Bush "light".

As far as your points above, I'd rather you PM me because it's getting way off topic.

However, I have to say that it is very difficult to discuss Mormonism when the church hierarchy keeps moving the goalposts every time a new president is elected. It's like "yeah, well, so and so said this and that, but he really didn't mean it or it's not important or it's different now," etc.

Hard to keep track of all that. The Christian Doctrine is found in the Bible, one source, that's it.

If you don't PM me, I'll PM you, if it's OK w/you. Have a plane to catch.
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,639 posts, read 24,153,635 times
Reputation: 11277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenyo View Post
(CNN) – A pastor of a mega church in Dallas said Friday that Republicans shouldn't vote for White House hopeful Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon and described the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a "cult."
"I think Mitt Romney's a good, moral man, but those of us who are born again followers of Christ should prefer a competent Christian," said Robert Jeffress, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Dallas, which has a congregation of about 10,000.

BREAKING: Pastor to GOP: Don’t vote for Romney because he’s Mormon – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

I agree with Jeffress on one thing. Mormonism is a cult but so is every denomination of xtianity. Seriously, when you spend your Sundays prentending to eat the body and drink the blood of a zombie that levatated into the sky, you can't pretend that you're any less cultish than protective underpants wearing, gods of their own planets when they die mormons. It's all nonsense.
The church should lose its tax exempt status.
If it wants to cross the line, it can pay for the privilege.
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:21 PM
 
Location: 22 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
23,436 posts, read 13,118,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post
.

I'm not voting for Romney because he's just George W. Bush "light".
did you vote for obama...he's bush on steriods
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:23 PM
 
Location: 22 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
23,436 posts, read 13,118,626 times
Reputation: 5920
Quote:
Don't vote for Romney because he's Mormon
who cares what he is

I dont care if he is catholic, morman, baptist, born again(they are the loony ones), athiest, agnostic, jewish, muslim, pagan/norse(like my self), druid, etc
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Old 10-25-2011, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post
The above post is completely off topic. I don't with to incur the wrath of the moderators.
My post was completely off-topic, but yours wasn't? I merely responded to your statements in which you attempted to define who is and who is not a Christian. If people don't want to talk about Romney's religion, they don't have to, but when they bring it up, I'm going to respond to their comments whether they like it or not.

Quote:
Back to Romney. Right or wrong, fair or unfair, there will be fundamentalists who are not going to vote for Romney because he's a mormon. I don't care what anybody says, there are plenty of folks out there who vote according to what their pastor/preacher tells them. Some people are just like that.
I can't disagree with you there.

Quote:
I'm not voting for Romney because he's just George W. Bush "light".
Personally, I haven't made my final decision as to who I'm going to vote for yet. Right now, I'm leaning towards Obama.

Quote:
As far as your points above, I'd rather you PM me because it's getting way off topic.
If it's getting off-topic, it's not my fault.

Quote:
However, I have to say that it is very difficult to discuss Mormonism when the church hierarchy keeps moving the goalposts every time a new president is elected. It's like "yeah, well, so and so said this and that, but he really didn't mean it or it's not important or it's different now," etc.
Actually it's very simple. As I stated in my prior post, "[LDS] doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." Those aren't my words; they're from the LDS Church leadership. So if you find it hard to discuss Mormonism, that's your problem. We actually make it very simple -- at least for people who actually want to get it right.

Quote:
Hard to keep track of all that. The Christian Doctrine is found in the Bible, one source, that's it.
Gotcha. Sola scriptura, right? No creeds. Nothing like that. If keeping track of the four "Standard Works" is hard for you, maybe that's just one more reason for you not to go looking beyond them for statements on Mormon doctrine.

Quote:
If you don't PM me, I'll PM you, if it's OK w/you. Have a plane to catch.
I don't care one way or the other. From what you've said so far, though, I don't really get the feeling you are particularly interested in finding out what we really believe. You posted your point of view. I posted mine. You said my remarks were off-topic. Do you really think we can accomplish anything in a PM?

Last edited by Katzpur; 10-25-2011 at 04:26 PM..
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Old 10-25-2011, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
The church should lose its tax exempt status.
If it wants to cross the line, it can pay for the privilege.
I don't really care what you think about the Church, but it hasn't broken any laws. If it should lose its tax-exempt status, so should every other church. It wouldn't matter to me, as long as they're all treated the same.
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