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Old 10-11-2011, 09:20 AM
Status: ""a mind that understands science"" (set 7 days ago)
 
18,792 posts, read 12,116,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob View Post
Those people aren't smart enough to be allowed to have money, huh? What unbelievable arrogance.
".............. to be allowed to have money". What "allowed" me to have money was hard work and education. I did not need to protest or defecate in public to achieve wealth.

Interesting thought process. Of course everyone is entitled to have the money that they earn. Now is everyone entitled to have money dropped on them from heaven, despite not earning it? Of course not. Are they entitled to a new Mercedes? How about a 6,000 sq foot house?

The rich are rich for a reason. Likewise the poor are poor for a reason. These events did not happen by accident. Again, if you "gave" the poor millions of dollars and the rich nothing, the poor would be poor again in ten years and the rich would be rich. What would you do then, Bob?

Here is a novel idea- instead of complaining about what you and others do not have, why not try working harder or getting more education? Few, if any, good things are corrected by whining and complaining.
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,243 posts, read 15,264,019 times
Reputation: 4583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
How do you propose a distribution that fits those decades? Our economic realities are different today.

The distribution of the 1950s-70s were the result of a large manufacturing base with easy access to those jobs out of high school, with no worldwide job competition due to World War II destroying much of the industrialized world.
One thing could be for Corporations to cut down bonuses and Exec pay, use that to increase wages or, gasp, maybe hire some people. AKA invest in Americans. Even if demand is not yet dictating hiring, prime the pump a little. That could help! There are very imaginative people in this Country, use that talent base.
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:34 AM
 
2,096 posts, read 1,641,418 times
Reputation: 996
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Lexus View Post
The problem with this way of thinking is that the hierarchy that emerged from slavery placed people at the top who didn't earn that position. You don't earn respect by subjugating and decimating an entire race of people for economic gain, then proceed forward with a false sense of superiority while being indifferent to the devastation that such evil has wrought on successive generations of descendants of slaves. Hence the reality of "unearned privilege", where those who benefited from the inequities are in the best position to preserve the inequities.

Republicans are desperate to preserve the inequities, making it harder for those minorities who are far more talented, have greater resolve, have overcome far more adversity, have a great deal more depth, knowledge, skill, dignity, education, and intelligence to "earn it." The pathetic economic theory of the typical hapless Republican is "trickle down" economics. This is where you give the rich, people who largely didn't "earn" their place, more money, so they can use that money to help those less fortunate flourish and join their ranks. Never happens. Instead, they use it to preserve the inequities.

Bigoted ideologies will never acknowledge this. Al Sharpton is absolutely right as usual. Sharpton, by the way, is fighting a battle that is morally superior to any feeble Republican concern: He fights for EQUALITY.
All of these points were more valid 20-30 years ago when the last generation of those born before the Civil Rights movement were still in school. There is now a clearly defined path that any person can take to success in this country, if they want it.

Even as an African-American, if a person wants to use the racism argument, they could graduate from majority Black high schools, obtain bachelors and graduate degrees from HBCUs, and move to a majority Black city to work. If that person is poor when they started, there are enough grants and financial aid to finance it, especially at a low cost public HBCU. Many of my friends from the old neighborhood followed this exact path and have not had trouble finding success in life.

Last edited by Freedom123; 10-11-2011 at 09:47 AM..
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:40 AM
 
2,096 posts, read 1,641,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob View Post
One thing could be for Corporations to cut down bonuses and Exec pay, use that to increase wages or, gasp, maybe hire some people. AKA invest in Americans. Even if demand is not yet dictating hiring, prime the pump a little. That could help! There are very imaginative people in this Country, use that talent base.
I understand your point and it sounds good, but that goes against the very nature of business and profits in a shareholder-oriented system. Only mom and pop & privately owned industries can make these choices without being negligent.

Speaking on the topic of this thread, redistribution isn't voluntary. Your viewpoint is voluntary but those corporations aren't (and won't) do it. So, how do you get to the goal of this thread and your scenario of the 1950s in an environment where corporations won't do what you're asking voluntarily?
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:51 AM
 
2,912 posts, read 3,308,523 times
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Any time I hear Rev. Al's name come up I have to interject with two words that annihilate his credibility........Tawana Brawley.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,243 posts, read 15,264,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
I understand your point and it sounds good, but that goes against the very nature of business and profits in a shareholder-oriented system. Only mom and pop & privately owned industries can make these choices without being negligent.

Speaking on the topic of this thread, redistribution isn't voluntary. Your viewpoint is voluntary but those corporations aren't (and won't) do it. So, how do you get to the goal of this thread and your scenario of the 1950s in an environment where corporations won't do what you're asking voluntarily?
What do you mean it is not doable? It is, it was and it can be again. I think Shareholders are, at least I am, interested in the longer term value.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:20 AM
 
2,096 posts, read 1,641,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob View Post
What do you mean it is not doable? It is, it was and it can be again. I think Shareholders are, at least I am, interested in the longer term value.
Hey Bob,

I'm glad you are a smarter investor, but look at the fluctuations on Wall Street. What happens when earnings projections are lower than anticipated or when the company makes less profit? Doesn't the stock go down? If the CEO uses profits for unprofitable means, he/she will be out of a job quickly.

Regardless, none of that matters because in reality the companies will not do what you ask. I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm saying they will not choose to do it. So, with that reality, how do we get to a 1950s-70s era distribution? To be clear, I'm looking for your solutions based on the current realities, I'm not trying to say your goal is impossible.

If I were a liberal, I would implement these:

-Since the biggest wealth creator is a primarily residence, get bank middlemen out of the mortgage market and have direct lending through the government.

-Pass single payer at the state level and prove that it works, then convince the rest of the country to do it at a national level. The biggest cause of bankruptcy is medical bills.

-Significantly remove or reduce the cost of college tuition. Work to force the rates back down to the days before government assistance, where one could pay their tuition through a part time job. Figure out why the rates were lower then, and mimic that system. Also, only fund public grants and loans for public colleges. Privates would have to sink and swim on their own to justify the higher rates. Implement this because a college degree is obviously a better indicator of career options.

-Repeal NAFTA and bring back manufacturing jobs.

-Teach manufacturing, trade and blue/pink collar workers in high school so everyone graduates with a marketable skill.

-Assist unions in creating their own companies and banks for their members instead of whining about corporations. They should have no problems winning the competition since they are in it for their members, and not profit right?

All of this could be done at the governmental level without protesting banks and corporations. They will not help your cause because it is not worth it to them. Run your cause like the Tea Party and bring in your own politicians who can support this type of platform and convince voters it's desirable.

Last edited by Freedom123; 10-11-2011 at 10:29 AM..
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:23 AM
 
4,380 posts, read 2,922,387 times
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What's Sharpton's net worth?
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,243 posts, read 15,264,019 times
Reputation: 4583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
Hey Bob,

I'm glad you are a smarter investor, but look at the fluctuations on Wall Street. What happens when earnings projections are lower than anticipated or when the company makes less profit? Doesn't the stock go down? If the CEO uses profits for unprofitable means, he/she will be out of a job quickly.

Regardless, none of that matters because in reality the companies will not do what you ask. I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm saying they will not choose to do it. So, with that reality, how do we get to a 1950s-70s era distribution? To be clear, I'm looking for your solutions based on the current realities, I'm not trying to say your goal is impossible.

If I were a liberal, I would implement these:

-Since the biggest wealth creator is a primarily residence, get bank middlemen out of the mortgage market and have direct lending through the government.

-Pass single payer at the state level and prove that it works, then convince the rest of the country to do it at a national level. The biggest cause of bankruptcy is medical bills.

-Significantly remove or reduce the cost of college tuition. Work to force the rates back down to the days before government assistance, where one could pay their tuition through a part time job. Figure out why the rates were lower then, and mimic that system. Also, only fund public grants and loans for public colleges. Privates would have to sink and swim on their own to justify the higher rates. Implement this because a college degree is obviously a better indicator of career options.

-Repeal NAFTA and bring back manufacturing jobs. Compete with other nations in every means possible.

-Teach manufacturing, trade and blue collar workers in high school so everyone graduates with a skill.

-Assist unions in creating their own companies and banks for their members instead of whining about corporations. They should have no problems winning the competition since they are in it for their members, and not profit right?

All of this could be done at the governmental level without protesting banks and corporations. They will not help your cause because it is not worth it to them. Run your cause like the Tea Party and bring in your own politicians who can support this type of platform and convince voters it's desirable.
Why do you think that would make the long term profitability of the Company go down?
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:37 AM
 
2,096 posts, read 1,641,418 times
Reputation: 996
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob View Post
Why do you think that would make the long term profitability of the Company go down?
Bob,

So, your only answer to everything I said above is to go right back to the corporations who have already decided not to do what you're asking? I gave you a goodie bag of liberal ideas to meet your goal and you ignored them. Is this really about making changes or about being anti-corporation?

Companies have already made their decision not to follow your path, so the point is moot. If your goals were profitable, they would have already done it. Since they aren't, what alternatives do you suggest in meeting your goal of redistribution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob
One thing could be for Corporations to cut down bonuses and Exec pay, use that to increase wages or, gasp, maybe hire some people. AKA invest in Americans. Even if demand is not yet dictating hiring, prime the pump a little. That could help! There are very imaginative people in this Country, use that talent base.
You've answered your question in your previous post I quoted above. Companies do not hire people if there is no demand. The first priority of a company is to make a profit. Of course the people at the top are going to take that profit for themselves through bonuses, stock options, etc. Why else would they work hard to create a profitable company?

Creating jobs is only a means to the end of profit. If companies could robotize or computerize every job, they would do it in a heartbeat. Businesses don't create jobs as a "social responsibility program". Why do you think they continue to "invest" in citizens of foreign nations with outsourcing/offshoring, and "invest" in illegal alien jobs here at home? Profit is their main motive, jobs are a side benefit the workers reap. The sooner Americans realize this, the better.
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