Has socialism ever been successful? Examples, please? (suspect, Michigan, rates)

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by Brave New World

China is totalitarian but gave up on communism and adopted capitalism [No, it did not] a long time ago, hence the current boom.

Cuba is a mess, where 50 year old cars are patched together as well as old scooters.

The only country in Europe where it was a partial succesful was Yugosavia where everything was mainly quite good until the death of Marshal Tito and the subsequent balkan wars.

Capitalist Principles
...

CAPITALISM - An economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for private profit.
- - - WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY

PRIVATE PROPERTY - "As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as belongs absolutely to an individual, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels."
- - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217

If you concatenate capitalism with private property, you can see the "inconvenient truth".

- - - CAPITALISM is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are absolutely owned by INDIVIDUALS and operated for their individual profit. - - -

Capitalism is an endowment to be secured by government. There is no government privilege involved in absolute ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and of the gain derived. Nor can capitalism be subject to an excise tax, since no government privilege is involved.

Any government that TAXES property ownership and the fruits of that property is NOT capitalist.
If you have to pay a tax or get permission (license) to own, buy, sell, work, and hire, you're not in a capitalist country.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by Madisonian92

Social welfare like Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security is not "socialism."

Actually, that is exactly what socialism is.
Compulsory labor for the benefit of another.
Expropriation of property for the benefit of another.
By the power of government, imposing "benevolent" slavery, is socialism... aka "collectivism" ... aka denial of the right to absolutely own private property.

▸ From the Communist manifesto: "In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."

When government can TAKE from one to GIVE to another, it has abolished private property ownership, and is in compliance with the Communist manifesto.

SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM, etc, - collective ownership; denies the individual any endowed rights to life, liberty or absolute ownership. (Without permission of the collective, you have no rights, period.)

[Brave New World]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Capitalist Principles
...

CAPITALISM - An economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for private profit.
- - - WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY

PRIVATE PROPERTY - "As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as belongs absolutely to an individual, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels."
- - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217

If you concatenate capitalism with private property, you can see the "inconvenient truth".



Capitalism is an endowment to be secured by government. There is no government privilege involved in absolute ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and of the gain derived. Nor can capitalism be subject to an excise tax, since no government privilege is involved.

Any government that TAXES property ownership and the fruits of that property is NOT capitalist.
If you have to pay a tax or get permission (license) to own, buy, sell, work, and hire, you're not in a capitalist country.

There's plenty of private companies and entreprenuers in China.

The means of production is not controlled by the state in China, indeed China has a lot of private industry, companies, financial service etc and they invest acriss the world including in places such as London, where Chinese companies are currently investing in a new finanial district at the Royal Docks.

Private Companies Are Driving China's Growth - Bloomberg

Entrepreneurship in China | The World Financial Review

Top Chinese Entrepreneurs Give Their Advice to the Next Generation

Brexit No Barrier for China's New Financial District Plan in London

This is just the start': China's passion for foreign property | Guardian

As for absolutely no priveledge, of course there is, most countries in the EU even prop up their industries through state intervention, and in terms of communism it's where the workers or proletariat have control over the means of production and this is not the case in China with it's private companies therefore China is not a Communist country or communist economy.

EU rapped by WTO for $10bn a year Airbus subsidies - BBC News

US Companies are also propped up by contracts in relation to the defence and military industrial complex and other Government departments, whilst areas such as health care and the prison industrial complex are also vast and have a lot of Federal Government input and state control.

[Quick Enough]

Originally Posted by Madisonian92

Social welfare like Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security is not "socialism." Social democracy as in much of Europe, especially the Scandinavian countries, is most definitely not democratic socialism. Socialism refers to one thing and one thing only. Check any encyclopedia ."Socialism" refers to the "government's ownership of the means of production." Publicly owned infrastructure, public hospitals, public parks, the post office, the military--- all of these things are arguably "means of production." Welfare payments and other social welfare, however, are NOT means of production. The prime minister of Denmark reproached Bernie Sanders who pointed to Denmark as practicing "democratic socialism." The Prime Minister observed that Denmark was a "strongly capitalist nation." When inequality of income and wealth get out of hand, as in much of the West today, constitutionally permitted taxation, rather than socialism, is the answer. During the 1950s and 1960s in the US, the tax rate on incomes of over several million dollars annually was 90%. Yet the economy boomed during this period.

"Social welfare like Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security is not "socialism."

Just like it depends on what the meaning of the word is, is"

Words have changed their meanings over the years.

[T-310]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Actually, that is exactly what socialism is.
Compulsory labor for the benefit of another.
Expropriation of property for the benefit of another.
By the power of government, imposing "benevolent" slavery, is socialism... aka "collectivism" ... aka denial of the right to absolutely own private property.

▸ From the Communist manifesto: "In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."

When government can TAKE from one to GIVE to another, it has abolished private property ownership, and is in compliance with the Communist manifesto.

SOCIALISM, COMMUNISM, etc, - collective ownership; denies the individual any endowed rights to life, liberty or absolute ownership. (Without permission of the collective, you have no rights, period.)

Read Venezuela.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by psulions2007

I'm so sick of the "we are capitalists, period" "they are socialists, period" "we=good" "they=bad" uneducated attitude perpetrated by the right in this country.

Educate yourselves. We are not capitalist. We are a mixed market economy. We have more capitalism than socialism in our market for sure, but there are other countries with more socialism that are equally or more successful on a per capita basis.

The goal is to find the perfect balance between the two... not to have one or the other. The world isn't black and white as much as conservatives try to make it out to be.

Thank you! OP, consider yourself enlightened...

I too get more than a little weary reading all these comments that obviously demonstrate such a poor understanding of what these political and/or economic terms really even mean, beginning with socialism!

Definition of socialism. 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

For those who forever go on about the "socialism" in America, please provide examples of how the government is owning or administering anything of consequence to any significant degree in this country.

I can't emphasize the essence of the comment above enough.

"Balance is key!"

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

To compound this situation, Socialism is genocidal. When people are persuaded to believe that their security in old age will be based on “taxing other people’s children,” they forego the hassle and expense of a large family, or even having children - which was the traditional means of old-age security for millennia. When this childless behavior is wide spread, the burgeoning pensioner population becomes a huge burden on the shrinking taxpayer base.


COLLAPSE OF THE SOCIALIST WORLD
Of course, socialism fails when it runs out of “other people’s money” and “other people’s children.” Invasions by surplus populations from non-Socialist countries are already a menace in many countries. Sadly, the depopulating socialists will become strangers in their own lands, losers of the BioWar. The future belongs to the descendants.

When you subsidize vice and penalize virtue, and empower alliances of perversion, what else can you expect?

Yes, indeed, Socialism is very successful - at destroying prosperity - imposing misery - enriching the top dogs - and fostering lawlessness and anarchy. Isn't it obvious? No government can simultaneously secure endowed rights to life, liberty and property ownership -and- prey upon those same rights, taking life*, property and liberty away from others... for the benefit of the official recipients.

(*Disarming people makes them easy prey for the predators in the private and public sectors.)

Have you ever thought that birth rates are dropping in Western Countries because people are financially punished for having kids? I haven't had a child yet because I can't afford it, and I make good money too.

[jonesg]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

Have you ever thought that birth rates are dropping in Western Countries because people are financially punished for having kids? I haven't had a child yet because I can't afford it, and I make good money too.

Children will provide the motivation to make more money than is currently required to satisfy the self.

[Tonyafd]

Originally Posted by nep321

With all this Occupy Wall Street protesting going on, it seems that these people are advocating a more socialist government. But, has socialism ever worked over the long term, to the point that it would be better than capitalist U.S. policy? Can someone give me examples of successful socialist countries that have lasted for the LONG TERM and/or will likely last for the LONG TERM? Should the U.S. envy other socialist countries? Does it really work better as these Occupy Wall Street people believe it would? Honestly, it seems like the Tea Party of the left.

Enlighten me.

Oh, You are talking about real Socialism. The government has no business running and owning industries. Leave that to the people who know what they are doing and let them profit from it.

Social Democracy on the other hand is where corporations don't run society. Society determines what rules corporations exist under. It is important to know that a corporation exists to enrich its stockholders. A corporation is an organization not a person. Only a compromised government would ever rule that a corporation is a person.

European style social democracies exist for the good of their citizens and don't let the corporations establish a workaholic life style for their employees. Social democracies have 20 days vacation a year. Social democracies have paid maternity leave for the father and mother. Some social democracies don't allow employees to be contacted at night or on weekends.

It's a better life. higher taxes but better.

[lilyflower3191981]

It works great for parochial interests who run the show. Not good for those ambivalent souls who accept it on faith or the vulnerable poor destined to wait in queues all day, then get mugged walking home at night with scarce food. Nor convenient shopping.