Has socialism ever been successful? Examples, please? (Israel, accuse, deportation)

[Grim Reader]

Originally Posted by steven_h

Honestly, I deal with people in the UK daily. The parent/distributor company of my company is based in Jersey and Blackpool. I've yet to talk to a single person espousing how good it is to be an Englishman these days. Suicide is on the rise, not for the typical teens and tweens, but for the middle aged. The state collects your paycheck and then pays you after taking what they want (need to perpetuate their negligent spending). Healthcare for anything involving surgery means a waiting list. I also love how the smallest of GDP's is compared the largest in the world. Gee, I wonder how the US became the largest GDP in the world. Now we are moving to a Euro style government (while Europe is moving away from it) and look how dismal we've become.

BTW: It is only because of the US that Europeans aren't all houseboys for German families.

Really? I spend about 3 months of the year in the UK for job reasons. Yes, the brits do complain a lot, but objectivly, they are better off. For most things, weather excepted. They have better health care, and the waiting lists for surgery are shorter than in the US. Yes, really.

I don't know how you are getting the "Biggest GDP on the planet" thing form. The EU has a bigger GDP, and several countries have bigger GDPs per person.

As for WW2, most people agree that the entry of the USA, and Amrericas declaration of war on Romania, shortened the war by about six months to a year.

Also...besides getting the GDPs wrong and thinking America decided WW2, you seem to be thinking that the state takes the paychecks of the brits, and that the UK is somehow more neglient in spending than other nations. Is that something you can substantiate, or is it just more raving?

[steven_h]

I do admire the citizens in the UK. They've been shafted so much over the last decades, yet they still have that "stiff upper lip and press on" attitude. We, here in the US, could learn a lesson in civility from them.

With that said:

Originally Posted by seacreature99

Rubbish, I don't hate living in the UK and neither do most people. Our problem is largely caused by a massively negative national media, which runs the country down on a daily basis and sensationalises everything beyond belief. The perfect example is the recent claim that the UK is more dangerous than South Africa! Sure, we don't have as high a quality of life as places like France (they have better weather for starters), but we're a long way off some Gulag in Siberia.
The British people you're talking to daily are obviously just miserable whingers of which there are a lot in the UK. (Blackpool is a complete dump anyway and Jersey isn't even part of the UK) They're not representative of the situation here at all. If people don't want to live in Britain that's fine, they can leave. Let the rest of us enjoy our cosy village pubs and friendly people in peace without their depressing moaning!

So in other words people have to live in a certain area of the UK to count as credible?

I'll have to remind my partner that he isn't a part of the UK as he pays his VAT taxes to the UK. That is semantics, it is a part of the UK in reality. But this is far off topic.

For example, one of my buddies in South London was kidnapped last month. He was beaten and with a concusion, managed to pull a can of mace on his attackers. When the police showed up... they arrested him for having pepper spray.

I just pointed him to your post. His response was LOLOLOLOLOL

You live in a land of CCTV all under the misguided belief you are safer for them. Cameras only help in solving a crime after the fact. Home invasions, smash and grabs, and violent crime is at all time highs in the UK. The cameras are more likely to be used to monitor law abiding citizens, rather than the thugs who will just go do a home invasion where there are no cameras. These facts aren't something that can be rationalised away.

Another partner in the UK has suffered through two sibling suicides in the last three years. One of these brothers was a banister and a retired member of parliament. I'm close to several people in the UK, who have had similar issues. Hence, my mentioning that the middle aged seem to be in a bleak frame of mind. They must be part of those "whingers" you talk about. BTW, would a "whinger" be the equivalent to a conservative here?









I guess there are a few people unhappy over there. Not all, of course, but maybe one or two.

[steven_h]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader

As for WW2, most people agree that the entry of the USA, and Amrericas declaration of war on Romania, shortened the war by about six months to a year.

Also...besides getting the GDPs wrong and thinking America decided WW2, you seem to be thinking that the state takes the paychecks of the brits, and that the UK is somehow more neglient in spending than other nations. Is that something you can substantiate, or is it just more raving?

Do corporate paychecks go to the government first and then disbursed to the employee? Several people I've spoken with said yes.

You've been a social welfare state for more than 140 years. Any massive social dole is mishandling public funds in my opinion. Of course, if you get a check from the government I guess to you it's money well spent.

I've not raved. I've only re-stated what people have told me. I'm told they aren't credible, they are whingers, and any number of other flames with even less substantiation than the people they are flaming. You do the logic mind maze on that.

The thread is "does socialism work". I conveyed why it doesn't and presented links and text showing that the examples used "for" were wrong. I guess it tweaked a few nerves. My apologies.

[Winter_Sucks]

Has socialism ever been successful?

Norway has about 4% unemployment rate.

[js1mom]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader

1961 called. They want their stats back. Don't forget that Western Europe has an immigration pressure that is hard to fanthom from the viewpoint of a medium-immigration whiteyville nation like America.
In 1961, European nations was pretty stable ethnically. 50 years later, it is quite a different story. Switzerland has twice as many foreigners as the USA, as a percentage. Germany, Sweden...it's 2011

The only problem with your theory, Grim, is that you are using stats for LEGAL immigrants in other countries when the US provides benefits to millions of ILLEGAL immigrants in addition to the legal ones. No other countries do that of which I am aware. In fact, you have to be in Denmark LEGALLY for 7 years PAYING THE FULL TAX BURDEN before you can even apply for permanent resident status and then begin receiving PARTIAL social benefits. I'll bet if the US did the same thing--- our system wouldn't be in the chaos that it's in right now either.

It's just like I said- they come late to a potluck dinner in the US and yet we continue to let them eat without contribution night after night after night... At what point does it cease to be acceptable to let your own children go hungry so that you can seat uninvited "guests" at your table day after day in some twisted bid to win their favor? When they finally die of starvation? And sending all or even most of your food overseas so that everyone can have a nibble, while those in your own house perish--- is that the action of a dutiful parent? I think not. The "fathers" of this country are slowly but surely killing off their own children to win favor with those who are not even their obligation.

Not sharing with others when you have excess is selfish and greedy, but not providing for those to whom you have either sworn an oath, or are legally obligated, to care for is negligent at best--- reckless homicide at worse.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by js1mom

The only problem with your theory, Grim, is that you are using stats for LEGAL immigrants in other countries when the US provides benefits to millions of ILLEGAL immigrants in addition to the legal ones. No other countries do that of which I am aware. In fact, you have to be in Denmark LEGALLY for 7 years PAYING THE FULL TAX BURDEN before you can even apply for permanent resident status and then begin receiving PARTIAL social benefits. I'll bet if the US did the same thing--- our system wouldn't be in the chaos that it's in right now either.

We do. We don't give welfare to illegal and we require five years for a legal immigrant to get any benefits.

It's just like I said- they come late to a potluck dinner in the US and yet we continue to let them eat without contribution night after night after night... At what point does it cease to be acceptable to let your own children go hungry so that you can seat uninvited "guests" at your table day after day in some twisted bid to win their favor? When they finally die of starvation? And sending all or even most of your food overseas so that everyone can have a nibble, while those in your own house perish--- is that the action of a dutiful parent? I think not. The "fathers" of this country are slowly but surely killing off their own children to win favor with those who are not even their obligation.

Not sharing with others when you have excess is selfish and greedy, but not providing for those to whom you have either sworn an oath, or are legally obligated, to care for is negligent at best--- reckless homicide at worse.

Utter nonsense. No benefits and the few things they get are a drop in the bucket.

The only real cost on the welfare side is some small aid to legal children who have as much right to it as an other American.

They get emergency room care...not paid for by any government effectively...and elementary school.

All together I doubt it is even detectable in the overall scheme of things.

Build one less aircraft carrier and it is all paid for.

[Isitmeorarethingsnuts?]

Originally Posted by js1mom

The only problem with your theory, Grim, is that you are using stats for LEGAL immigrants in other countries when the US provides benefits to millions of ILLEGAL immigrants in addition to the legal ones. No other countries do that of which I am aware. In fact, you have to be in Denmark LEGALLY for 7 years PAYING THE FULL TAX BURDEN before you can even apply for permanent resident status and then begin receiving PARTIAL social benefits. I'll bet if the US did the same thing--- our system wouldn't be in the chaos that it's in right now either.

It's just like I said- they come late to a potluck dinner in the US and yet we continue to let them eat without contribution night after night after night... At what point does it cease to be acceptable to let your own children go hungry so that you can seat uninvited "guests" at your table day after day in some twisted bid to win their favor? When they finally die of starvation? And sending all or even most of your food overseas so that everyone can have a nibble, while those in your own house perish--- is that the action of a dutiful parent? I think not. The "fathers" of this country are slowly but surely killing off their own children to win favor with those who are not even their obligation.

Not sharing with others when you have excess is selfish and greedy, but not providing for those to whom you have either sworn an oath, or are legally obligated, to care for is negligent at best--- reckless homicide at worse.

Great post and you are correct.

Our school system is deteriorating and poverty is on the rise, but hey, it's just a drop in the bucket.

What isn't said is that with one anchor baby the entire family gets benefits and all children get free education and health care. But when any data is collected it shows it as going to a legal immigrant and ignores the fact that the entire illegal family benefits.

[steven_h]

Originally Posted by olecapt

We do. We don't give welfare to illegal and we require five years for a legal immigrant to get any benefits. Utter nonsense. No benefits and the few things they get are a drop in the bucket. The only real cost on the welfare side is some small aid to legal children who have as much right to it as an other American.
They get emergency room care...not paid for by any government effectively...and elementary school. All together I doubt it is even detectable in the overall scheme of things. Build one less aircraft carrier and it is all paid for.

Just Arizona: Arizona state treasurer Dean Martin says his state loses between $1.3 billion and $2.5 billion each year on illegal immigrants. In addition to the fiscal costs of incarcerating and educating illegal immigrants and their families

2008 data:
$11 billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments.
Illegal households only pay about one-third the amount of federal taxes that non-illegal households pay.
Illegal households create a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion a year. If given amnesty, this number could grow to more than $29 billion.
$1.9 billion dollars a year is spent on food-assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
$1.6 billion is spent on the federal prison and court system for illegal aliens.
$2.5 billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
About 21 percent of the population of U.S. prisons is classified as “noncitizens” from Mexico, Colombia, Cuba and the Dominican Republic. About 5 percent is listed as “unknown.”

Since this will be fact check denied, we'll go with FAIRs latest report from 2010:

The study’s breakdown of costs on a state-by-state basis shows that in states with the largest number of illegals, the costs of illegal immigration are often greater than current, crippling budget deficits. In Texas, for example, the additional cost of immigration, $16.4 billion, is equal to the state’s current budget deficit; in California the additional cost of illegal immigration, $21.8 billion, is $8 billion more than the state’s current budget deficit of $13.8 billion; and in New York, the $6.8 billion deficit is roughly two-thirds the $9.5 billion yearly cost of its illegal population, according to Jack Martin, the researcher who completed the study.

“The most important finding of the study is the enormous cost to state and local governments due to lack of enforcement of our immigration laws,” Martin wrote.
The report found that the federal government paid $28.6 billion in illegal related costs, and state and local governments paid $84.2 billion on an estimated 13 million undocumented residents.


Read more: Illegal Immigration Costs U.S. $113 Billion A Year, Study Finds | Fox News

USS George H.W. Bush (CVN-77) is the tenth and final Nimitz-class supercarrier of the United States Navy and was completed in 2009 at a cost of $6.2 billion.

Make that all 10 of our Nimitz class carriers would cover the illegals suck on our system. That's 10 carriers a year plus a couple dozen strike fighters to load on them.

[artemis agrotera]

Originally Posted by alphamale

Those systems are collapsing, in case you've missed it.

Those nations do not have our Constitution.

Germany, Canada & Australia are NOT collapsing.

[geeoro]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader

Really? I spend about 3 months of the year in the UK for job reasons. Yes, the brits do complain a lot, but objectivly, they are better off. For most things, weather excepted. They have better health care, and the waiting lists for surgery are shorter than in the US. Yes, really.

I don't know how you are getting the "Biggest GDP on the planet" thing form. The EU has a bigger GDP, and several countries have bigger GDPs per person.

As for WW2, most people agree that the entry of the USA, and Amrericas declaration of war on Romania, shortened the war by about six months to a year.

Also...besides getting the GDPs wrong and thinking America decided WW2, you seem to be thinking that the state takes the paychecks of the brits, and that the UK is somehow more neglient in spending than other nations. Is that something you can substantiate, or is it just more raving?

Well Said!
Not really sure where some on here get their info from regarding Europe or in fact any other Country outside the USA, considering that most Americans do NOT have a passport and have never even left their State let alone the USA. They seem to believe biased media........ Oh well no fool like a old fool who only has media as a guide.
If anyone needs to see how succesful Socialism is then go to Germany or Australia or New Zealand ........... God the list goes on and on and on.