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Kaintuck, m' man... thanks for the compliments on my intelligence. I think. And I like the qoute from Churchill - although the jist of it may be true concerning many issues - it is an over-genrealization made 50+ years ago... it may not be one to best offer a synopsis of the ever complex world that we live in today. If only the the issues were as black and white, we all may not be here discussing things as much as we do. What it all comes down to beyond the ideologies we all subscribe to - is just exactly what the f*ck.......... is the TRUTH. Truth has always been difficult to come by in the world - and never more so than today. And you know what they say is the first casuality of war is....
So.... anyway... let's think here ...
Is there truth in that radical madmen out there want to kill every Johnny and Suzie Q in America - and then claim thier prize Muslim Disneyland complete with 40 virgins? Sure, there is. How big of a threat they are is open for interpretation. But it could be minimal, maybe worse. Or it could have been made much worse by the U.S. invading Iraq and Afghanistan. Let's just fight 'em over there and then hope they don't follow us home... right? What is going to keep them from following us home in the future? Are we going to teach them to "Stay!" like we would a rabid incarnation of 'Ol Yeller? Sure. That will work.
And then....
Are there radical madmen who pose as our "leaders" with our best interest at heart... who lie, cheat and create things to further their agenda of power and greed? Yes. Ya know, the ones who all served so gallantly in past wars, never got deferrments, etc... and have long resumes of being nothing short of gangster businessmen or silverspoon sons of past politicians. You put your faith in them? Hmm. You are awfully trusting, there. Hope no one knocks on your door tonight at 2am with a pistol and mask over there face asking for cookies and milk.
So, hey - pick your poison... which side you think is more of a threat. Ain't the world grand?
Personally, I choose to think the agenda set forth by the Bush Administration, coupled with the obvious lies, simplistic talking points, power grabs through Executive Orders, use of fear, the contradications, allowance of open borders (how do you hold a war on terror with open borders?), control of the media, outsourcing of American jobs, the treating of the Constitution as it were toilet paper, etc. etc. etc. is one to be highly suspect of. And being American, you have to come to the reality that in face of all these perposterous things set upon us by ones who are supposed to be the "good guys" - well... like 'ol Georgie boy once said - "Fool me once.....garble garble garble... You can't get fooled again..."
But, for some, it is easier to ignore that - and just fade back to the black and white - cowboys vs. indians mentality - and choose to ignore the obvious which is right there.
And yeah, can't help to bring it up - but 9/11 is the the event that was the catalyst for the events and transformation of our world in the past 6 years. If one chooses - with an open mind - to look at all the facts, and use a little bit of common sense - it is difficult to believe that there is not something - or many things - amiss with the official version of how things went down that day - and thereafter. But of course, there are those who reject that angle - because it is too difficult for them to digest and accept the alternative possibilties. It's a hard deal, I know... but you have to face it. And it's not something I wish were true. I'm just a normal guy, who sees things for what they are. There are many others who feel the same way. The official story reeks of an inside operation - and if that is the case - the rest of what is going on is complete bullsh*t. And if they did it once, they very well might do it again.
Would you call these people "Moonbats" or "Whackos" given their credentials? I certainly would not.
I would suggest you spend an hour or so reading through these statements made by highly decorated military individuals... scholars, and others.
Like the old saying goes - where there is smoke..... there is....fire... a fire redder than the one on Faux News' color spectrum of terror alerts........ You need to wake up.... the coffee is brewing.... and it's chock full of nuts - Neo Con Maniac's combined with a tinge of radical muslims. And hey! I guess it is all a bit like the Vietnam war in a sense... you just don't know who the enemy is these days. GW should have mentioned that in his latest speech.... oh the irony in his words.... because if you listen to them there is a ton of double speak - terror, terror, terror.... and, ironicly, he is one of the terrorists. Gotta love it. And hey - he reads a children's book to kids as his country is being "attacked". For how many minutes did he sit there for? And for what reason? He didn't want to disturb the children??? Sure..... Mmmkay. Typical protocol for the secret service to follow. "Finish My Pet Goat... and get him the hell out of here...!!!" If it all weren't so tragic, it would be great comedy. Insanity at its highest level.
Time for a beer, and a break from thinking about this out of control world we live in.
Last edited by Berkshires413; 08-28-2007 at 12:05 AM..
The fact that you don't support Hillary Clinton has raised my respect for you 10 fold.
I was going to have no respect for you if you believe the way you do, but still support and wanted to vote for Hillary for President still.
I respect Ron Paul, but disagree with him on Iraq. My past Military experience has not allowed me to give up on my brothers serving in Iraq, however, and I can not support my fellow Libertarian based on this one issue. And it is too important to NOT succeed.
We need to Iraq as a strong Middle East ally. We also need U.S. Military bases in Iraq to be strategically placed between Saudi Arabia and Iran to be able respond to threats.
It's vital for our countries' security and military advantage.
The President of the United States receives the "threat matrix" every morning....vacation, holidays, etc.....
If he has intelligence showing a threat of Iran's nuclear weapons I will give him my full support in that mission.
Iran can NOT get nuclear weapons. You need to read about the Shia belief in the 12th Imam and what that means if Ahmadjiehad is a member of the Hojjatieh Society.
The 12th Imam is Shia Islam's "Messiah". The Hojjatieh believe they can CONTROL this event by creating ARMAGEDON. I believe Ahmadjinehad will use Nuclear Weapons to create Armagedon and be willing to sacrifice Iran for the 12th Imam.
Ahmadijinehad is not afraid of "mutual destruction". He welcomes the "martyrdom", because I believe he thinks he can control the return of the 12th Imam or "Mohammed al-Mahdi". Most Shia believe his return can not be controlled.
Think about this scenario.
I am telling you launching strategic strikes are a better scenario compared to the alternative.
sorry AL and KAINTUCK,I have alot of respect for you,I think we are in tune in alot of respect but some of what you posted (specifically Iraq)I disagree with.After the first Gulf war I always thought t was not a good idea to stay there.They didn't want American bases on their land,we shouldn't have stayed.We were just because we liberated Kuwait,we whipped Sadam,we should have withdrawn then.We should fight for a just cause then leave the area for those to govern themselves specially when we are not wanted.
We the American people are not giving up on soldiers in Iraq,they have won what a conventional military is designed for just like we did in the Gulf war.But a democratic government can't be handed on a platter to a people who are not ready for it and are not willing to earn it,they need to fight it out for themselves.I personally was naive to think everybody wants a democratic society.
Yes troops are providing services after the assault on Iraq military forces,but we are in occupation mode now,to a people overall not wanting us there and unwilling to earn their own freedom.Guerilla warfare never ends in this situation and no matter how mighty a occupying army is it will never end it.
If our national security is at risk,take them out...then leave.Nation building specially building military bases afterward is the wrong direction though.
Just like how government treats its citizens at home,the same with foreign policy and that is the end does not justify the means.It may be true that we were lied to about Iraq in order to bring a fight to the territory....boots on the ground but a president should not lie to the American people not matter how good intentions might be,the end does not justify the means,otherwise the constitution is perminately scrap paper,which the boots on the ground and civilians have the true oath toward.
sorry AL and KAINTUCK,I have alot of respect for you,I think we are in tune in alot of respect but some of what you posted (specifically Iraq)I disagree with.After the first Gulf war I always thought t was not a good idea to stay there.They didn't want American bases on their land,we shouldn't have stayed.We were just because we liberated Kuwait,we whipped Sadam,we should have withdrawn then.We should fight for a just cause then leave the area for those to govern themselves specially when we are not wanted.
We the American people are not giving up on soldiers in Iraq,they have won what a conventional military is designed for just like we did in the Gulf war.But a democratic government can't be handed on a platter to a people who are not ready for it and are not willing to earn it,they need to fight it out for themselves.I personally was naive to think everybody wants a democratic society.
Yes troops are providing services after the assault on Iraq military forces,but we are in occupation mode now,to a people overall not wanting us there and unwilling to earn their own freedom.Guerilla warfare never ends in this situation and no matter how mighty a occupying army is it will never end it.
If our national security is at risk,take them out...then leave.Nation building specially building military bases afterward is the wrong direction though.
Just like how government treats its citizens at home,the same with foreign policy and that is the end does not justify the means.It may be true that we were lied to about Iraq in order to bring a fight to the territory....boots on the ground but a president should not lie to the American people not matter how good intentions might be,the end does not justify the means,otherwise the constitution is perminately scrap paper,which the boots on the ground and civilians have the true oath toward.
Of all my discussions on Iraq why did you quote my discussion on Hillary Clinotn and Iran?
I don't like Bush, but he didn't "lie" about the threat of Saddam Hussein, his links to Osama Bin Laden/al-Qaeda/terrorists, and his WMDs.
Why don't you try quoting something I posted about Iraq and we go from there.
As far as "nation building" and "occupation mode".
This was explained to the American people by many. Including Democrats and Republicans.
In 2002 Democrats and Republicans voted for the Iraq War and explained to the American people the sacrifices to be made.
Our U.S. Military is doing a phenomenal job, the commitment was made by Democrats & Republicans, and we owe it our American Soldiers & the Iraqi people to do this right.
In 2002 Democrat Joe Biden and Republican Chuck Hagel reiterated the cost of the Iraq War and the sacrifices to be made when they wrote an op-ed piece together.
The explained to the American people that we would OCCUPYING Iraq for at least 10 YEARS with a troop level of at least 75,000 soldiers!
This op-ed originally appeared in THE WASHINGTON POST on December 20, 2002.
OP-ED: Iraq: The Decade After (broken link)
Quote:
IRAQ: THE DECADE AFTER
By Joseph R. Biden and Chuck Hagel
The United States will face enormous challenges in a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq, as well as broad regional questions that must be addressed. These are both matters that members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee have been focusing on for some time. During a week-long trip to the region, we came away with a better understanding of the possibilities and perils that lie ahead.
In northern Iraq we saw the extraordinary potential of Iraqis once they are out from under Saddam Hussein's murderous hand. New hospitals, schools, roads and lively media are testimony to the determination of Iraqi Kurds and to the bravery of coalition air crews patrolling the no-fly zone. Just a few hours' drive from the oppressive rule in Baghdad, a freely elected regional government and legislature (which we were honored to address) are embarked on a path of clear-eyed realism. While neighboring countries fear an independent Kurdistan, Kurdish leaders appear committed to working together for a united Iraq. They realize they could lose everything they have built in the past decade by pursuing independence.
Although no one doubts our forces will prevail over Saddam Hussein's, key regional leaders confirm what the Foreign Relations Committee emphasized in its Iraq hearings last summer: The most challenging phase will likely be the day after -- or, more accurately, the decade after -- Saddam Hussein.
Once he is gone, expectations are high that coalition forces will remain in large numbers to stabilize Iraq and support a civilian administration. That presence will be necessary for several years, given the vacuum there, which a divided Iraqi opposition will have trouble filling and which some new Iraqi military strongman must not fill.
Various experts have testified that as many as 75,000 troops may be necessary, at a cost of up to $ 20 billion a year.
That does not include the cost of the war itself, or the effort to rebuild Iraq.
Now Hagel and Democrat Presidential Candidate Biden are trying to rewrite history and mislead the American people.
Our country decided to make this commitment to the Iraqi people. The vast majority of Americans were in favor of the invasion of Iraq.
The majority of Democrats and Republicans made the commitment and voted for the Iraq War.
We are there now. Now is not the time to lose our resolve. Much is at stake if we do not win the peace for the Iraqi people.
I support the decisioin to remove Saddam Hussein based on facts and intelligence that was reported by a Democrat Administration and a Republican one.
I believe Bush and Rumsfeld did a horrible job in planning for the post-Saddam era, but the best Military in the world is still winning in Iraq.
And as I said before if we do win in Iraq it will only be due to the amazing men & women in the U.S. Military being able to adapt in very very difficult circumstances.
You are uninformed if you believe the majority of the Iraqi people do not want freedom and a Secular Democracy.
AL,I was adressing both yours and KAINTUCKS response.I was adressing your response of prior military experience and not wanting to gve up on your brothers.I understand the loyalty,understand that American people like me feel loyalty toward them also,but disagreeing on Iraq is not breaking that loyalty.
Yes both the president and members of congress made the case of going to Iraq,based on the fact of WMD.This was soon after 9-11,when emotions were charged full and reason was not.I bought it hook line and sinker also.As WMD'S were not to be found the explainations shifted toward liberating Iraq for democracy.
And ,the explaination now is the WMD'S were a excuse to get a foothold on the region.Telling the people we are going to war based on a deception is wrong.While our military might be doing a great job,ultimatey it is up to the people to decide whether it is right or wrong.
AL,I was adressing both yours and KAINTUCKS response.I was adressing your response of prior military experience and not wanting to gve up on your brothers. I understand the loyalty,understand that American people like me feel loyalty toward them also,but disagreeing on Iraq is not breaking that loyalty.
Where have I ever stated that "disagreeing on Iraq is breaking loyalty"?
Disagreeing on the reasons of why we went to war is any American's right.
Trying to undermine the mission, after the commitment has been made, is despicable in my opinion.
Especially when American Soldiers are volunteering and reenlisting for Iraq at RECORD levels.
They know the Iraqi people appreciate their sacrifice and they also know the vast majority of Iraqis are peace loving people who want freedom and a Secular Democracy.
Quote:
Iraqis embrace Secular Democracy
Aug. 2, 2007
Iraqi attitudes continue to shift toward secular values
Moderator cut: copyrights
It takes one radical Wahabi to load up a car full of explosives and kill HUNDREDS of Iraqis.
This does not mean Iraq is in a full genocidal sectarian civil war.
They are not.
The majority of Iraqis are for peace, secularism, and a free democracy.
Why so hostile towards one Iraqi presenting his unbiased opinion of Iraq? He is one man.
You don't know what the hell you are talking about.
I have established relationships with Iraqis who are Shia
and Sunni.
Iraq has the highest percantage of Sunni/Shia
mixed marriages in the Middle East!
Also, Iraqis are used to living in a secular society, since Saddam
was a Secular Sunni.
Drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes are forbidden by Islam, but Iraqis
LOVE to smoke and drink.
al-Qaeda was beheading Secular Sunnis for smoking cigarettes. This is one of the many reasons the Secular Tribal Sunnis turned on al-Qaeda.
Secularism is the majority in Iraq.
Sectarianism is a small minority trying to create chaos and they are failing.
The media and anti-War Liberals only care for Iraq's "failure" with their intellectually dishonesty. They don't care to dig deeper and get real facts.
Quote:
Iraqi marriages defy civil war spectre
Arab World
By Ahmed Janabi
Some Iraqis believe that a low-intensity civil war is already on.
MWC News - A Site Without Borders - - Iraqi marriages defy civil war spectre (http://mwcnews.net/content/view/5582/231/ - broken link)
Their is a small minority of Wahabi and sectarian muslims trying to cause sectarian civil war, but they are failing.
The vast majority of Iraqis are secular and did embrace freedom and democracy.
What you think you know, about Iraq, is slanted without real facts.
When the media speaks of a sectarian "civil war" in Iraq they are LIEING to the American people.
When the majority of Iraqis quit coming up to Ameirican Soldiers and stop shakeing their hand and THANKING them for their sacrifice and saying "Thank You for my Freedom" I will support a full-scale withdrawal:
IRAQIS WILL ACTUALLY WALK UP TO OUR
AMERICAN HEROES,
LOOK THEM IN THE EYES, SHAKE THEIR HAND,
AND TELL THEM "THANK YOU". Often times with their children.
Below Captain William Johnson, the 1-8 Combined Arms Battalion chaplain,
gives candy to Iraqi children on the streets of Balad, Iraq, March 4.
Johnson and other members of 1-8 CAB were on the streets of this
city west of Baghdad to see how the efforts of the Fighting Eagles have improved life.
Below a Soldier from the 1st Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division,
takes time to play with Iraqi children at a medical screening, in Mosul, Iraq.
Below Sgt. Maj. Benny Hubbard, from the Army Corps of Engineers,
greets an Iraqi child prior to a ribbon cutting ceremony for a new elementary school in Afak.
Below Maj. Roger Alsup, a Missouri National Guardsman
from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and principal of T.S. Hill Middle School in Dexter, Mo.,
distributes school supplies to Iraqi children in Fallujah.
The supplies were donated by students and faculty at Alsup's middle school.
I know you guys are doing a hell of a job,leaders should not go to war based on deception though.
I am not a liberal,I think my posts on this forum through time have proven that,what I am though is one who expects government to not decieve it's people.
For me being one now who views Iraq as a blunder and not trusting anymore of a administration who would in my view decieve,you may think I'm turning my back on you military folk and not allowing you to finish your mission....in that I'm regretful you view me that way.
I know you guys are doing a hell of a job,leaders should not go to war based on deception though.
I am not a liberal,I think my posts on this forum through time have proven that,what I am though is one who expects government to not decieve it's people.
For me being one now who views Iraq as a blunder and not trusting anymore of a administration who would in my view decieve,you may think I'm turning my back on you military folk and not allowing you to finish your mission....in that I'm regretful you view me that way.
I saw your posted photos and I thought they were fantastic.
President Clinton and Democrats said the same things as Bush. How did Bush "deceive" the American people?
What do you disagree with?
Saddam had nuclear plans and parts along with 500 tons of uranium in his possesion verified in 2003.
If you believe Bush "lied" or "deceived" Americans on Saddam Hussein WMD programs, links to al-Qaeda, and
harboring terrorists in Baghdad then do you believe President Clinton, Sandy Berger, Madeline Alright,
John Kerry, Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, Jay Rockefeller, Nancy Pelosi, Al Gore, and Ted Kennedy all
"deceived" the American people in 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001?
More cut and paste propaganda for one giant welfare system over there. I say we take care of here first instead of contributing more to a welfare system that does nothing productive for the united states. If we like welfare so much, I prefer my money closer to home.
If we have more money than god and no problems at home, sure go ahead, but its not like our borders and healthcare are ok plus we have deep deficit. Somebody's gonna pay from all the borrowing to cover this welfare system, and it will be taken from us and our children later down the road.
If Al Gore was president, I do not believe his administration would have done the same thing.
Congress gave Bush the power, he pulled the trigger. In fact, his administration pushed freaking hard for it. Lots of hearings to convinced everyone it is worth it.
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