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Wow! There is a lot of ignorance here. So many people think that churches shouldn't be allowed to voice their views on a political issue, or to fund a political entity or position, and if they don't keep their big mouth shut, they should lose their tax exempt status.
I've got news for you. The separation of church and state is not in the constitution. The first amendment protects our right to practice our religion. It protects our right to use our religion to guide how we vote. And surprise surprise, it protects politicians' rights to legislate based on their personal moral views, which were probably largely learned as a child from religion. Ron Paul voting against abortion is not violating any constitutional rule. In fact, telling any politician that he can't vote a certain way just because it happens to coincide with a certain religious point of view is tantamount to fascism. If it's "illegal" to vote against... say... gay marriage, then the vote itself is a fraud.
Let me ask you this one question, if church and state was TRULY separate, how on EARTH could any Christian be a politician? Could a Buddhist monk become a politician? Could a.... satanist? So if church and state were truly separate, then the only people who could hold office would be atheists. And we would all be living under the thumb of atheism. You don't think that would start to violate our first amendment rights?
Let me educate you on the procedure our founding fathers laid down for us. Politicians vote how they promised they would. They follow the views they expressed in their campaign. They are not allowed to vote on the constitutionality of anything. In fact, constitutionality shouldn't even enter their thinking. Their thinking should be "is this right." That's it! THEN the COURTS are charged with deciding if a decision or law is constitutional.
Let the politicians do their JOB! And leave the constitutionality to the courts. Let the people vote their conscious. Let the churches protect their interests.
The corporations are allowed to manipulate congress, and I think we can all agree that their interest is entirely selfish. At least the churches aren't killing anyone for profit. The churches' end goals are goodness. The corporations' goals are greed.
"Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect “a wall of separation between church and State,” ...
Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947)
The implication of separation of church and state is found in the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. And I've got news for you, many of our Founding Fathers (George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin just to name a few) were either Deists (God as the Master Clock maker), or atheists. Furthermore, your idea about our Founding Fathers views about the constitution is entirely incorrect. They either interpreted the constitution strictly, like Thomas Jefferson did, or loosely observed it, like Alexander Hamilton.
Christians in this country really need to stop wrapping Jesus up in party politics. He didn't care about using Roman politics to spread his message, and neither did his earliest followers. I wish most modern Christians felt the same way.
I wish most modern ATHEISTS understood that their beliefs about abortion, marriage, healthcare and general morality are every bit as religious as mine. It's practically impossible for (some) Christians to have a view on certain issues (such as same sex marriage and abortion) without including Jesus and the rest of our religion.
Exact wording of Amendment 1
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for redress of grievances".
The only 'separation' I see is that the Government can't mandate a religion and force me to believe in it.
I wish most modern ATHEISTS understood that their beliefs about abortion, marriage, healthcare and general morality are every bit as religious as mine. It's practically impossible for (some) Christians to have a view on certain issues (such as same sex marriage and abortion) without including Jesus and the rest of our religion.
Well, we all bring our worldviews to the table, and I won't deny that my take on the gospel influences many of my political views. And I'm just as permitted to bring those issues to the table as an atheist is. But I in no way claim that Jesus would agree with all of my views. That would be presumptuous and unethical. By the way, someone should probably tell that to James Dobson and the religious right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartalx
I think we all should be tax exempt because the income tax is illegal.
Were churches tax exempt before 1913? Anyway, another argument.
Well, actually the income tax is not illegal because it's enshrined in the sixteenth amendment of our Constitution, much as most conservatives would like to wish it away, it's with us for a looooong time.
I'm largely referring to people who want to tell others that they can't follow their religious convictions because they represent the government.
Perhaps the discussion would benefit from a definition of what people are telling other people that they can't follow their religious convictions and then identify what religious convictions that are in question.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
This is a silly fight, of course the phrase "separation of church and state" does not in the constitution and no matter how one attempts to massage what is actually written there, no amount of massaging will make it suddenly appear.
However, whatever is actually written there, the meaning is the same there is a wall between government and the state as Jefferson and subsequent Supreme Court decisions attest:
Mr. President
To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
...Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.
(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.
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No ignorance here
