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Old 10-19-2011, 02:20 PM
 
Location: California
1,028 posts, read 1,144,050 times
Reputation: 828

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Mostly... because it just doesn't work.
Says who? Try telling that to Pakistan and India, Taiwan, Ireland, the Balkan nations, nations of the former USSR, South Korea and many more.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:21 PM
 
10,115 posts, read 6,995,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNLV09 View Post
Come on, you seriously can't be that naive. Just ask the people in both cities what they think about environmental regulations on businesses, affirmative action, universal health care, the death penalty, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, gay marriage, interracial marriage (anyone remember the poll that said half of Mississippi Republicans think interracial marriage should be illegal?), and a slew of other issues.

These are all very serious issues and many of them are matters of life and death (health care, war, crime and punishment). And both peoples have completely opposite views on how to handle these issues. The result is that when we send our local politicians out to Washington to vote on polices, they can't agree on anything or we end up living under legislation that was crafted by someone who lives 3000 miles away, and we all end up unhappy.

Why is this so hard to understand? Why don't Americans want more regional freedom and autonomy?
We used to be able to agree to disagee--we'd have heated debate, but at the end of the day, politicians knew that compromise worked, and things got done for the good of the country. Not everybody got their way, but enough people did at different times that the system worked.

Now--not so much. We have big companies doing what they want and controlling the process, while they stoke the debate on fringe issues that really don't impact our day to day lives, and keep us focused on everything other than what's really important. I'm tired of debating fringe topics, and the hysteria that goes with it. I want to talk about real problems, like how to build an economy based on private industry that creates jobs in this country. Creating a series of small banana republics vs. states isn't going to make that happen. We have more in common--if we focus on what's important--that we could ever have dividing us.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:24 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 32,107,223 times
Reputation: 14896
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNLV09 View Post
Come on, you seriously can't be that naive. Just ask the people in both cities what they think about environmental regulations on businesses, affirmative action, universal health care, the death penalty, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, gay marriage, interracial marriage (anyone remember the poll that said half of Mississippi Republicans think interracial marriage should be illegal?), and a slew of other issues.
Naive? I showed you the vote totals for both areas of the country and in not one case was the difference anything approaching a 2/3 majority. And that was just based upon McCain vs Obama we didn't even begin micro analyzing each and every issue where any poll would reveal a great deal of overlap and narrowing based upon a more detailed analysis.

Quote:
Why is this so hard to understand?
After providing you with TWO colored maps, why is it so fracking hard for you to look at them and tell us where you are going to draw the lines of division?
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:26 PM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,430,976 times
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Or communists can learn to understand this is not a nation to serve the collective of their ideal, but a nation of free individuals. There will be no splitting. If they want such, they will have to earn it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:26 PM
 
Location: California
1,028 posts, read 1,144,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crone View Post
I strongly suspect, if given factual information and the alternatives to solving a problem, and a pledge to honor the wisdom of everybody , we would agree on at 75% of what is a problem and the solutions. Get the media loudmouths and lobbyists out of the room, real information, consequences of the alternatives and well intentioned people who put ego aside, and we could work it out. And save a bundle of money, too.
When I found out that governments, local, state and federal already pay for 60% of the healthcare in this country, and business pays for 20%, single payer does not look so radical. Bet most of us, together, could figure out how to get everybody's need met.
Try telling that to the people in this documentary. And these aren't "media loudmouths" and "lobbyists". These are normal Americans who were interviewed on the campaign trail. And they feel strongly that the current party in power, in almost every way does not represent their beliefs, needs or political ideologies, so much that many of them shed tears throughout the documentary. I don't agree with these people's right wing ideologies, but I think they should have the right to live under the government of their choice.


Right America Feeling Wronged pt1 - YouTube
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:31 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,500 posts, read 62,199,370 times
Reputation: 32187
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNLV09
Why don't Americans want more regional freedom and autonomy?
Mostly... because it just doesn't work.
It didn't really work back in the 18th century either, btw...
but on a practical basis it just made more sense to not upset too many apple carts at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNLV09 View Post
Says who? Try telling that to Pakistan and India... and many more.
Not sure what idea or point you're trying to make is but... do try to stay on topic.
This is your thread after all.

Back in the UNITED States ... we have had one problem after another when the provincials at one wide spot in a road wanted to say how the folks at some other wide spot should act when (after you pulled up the table cloth some and see) everyone is actually doing pretty much the same exact things everywhere.

It's past the time to end the artifice of it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:33 PM
 
Location: California
1,028 posts, read 1,144,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Naive? I showed you the vote totals for both areas of the country and in not one case was the difference anything approaching a 2/3 majority. And that was just based upon McCain vs Obama we didn't even begin micro analyzing each and every issue where any poll would reveal a great deal of overlap and narrowing based upon a more detailed analysis.



After providing you with TWO colored maps, why is it so fracking hard for you to look at them and tell us where you are going to draw the lines of division?
Drawing lines would be a very complicated issue that would have to involve a lot of negotiating and other considerations. Being that conservatives are liberal in found in every county in every state, if some people wanted to live under their party of choice, they would have to move. It has been done before in other nations. And throughout history people have sacrificed much more than a move for the sake of their political ideologies. I know I'd move a few states away to not have to live under a regime I didn't believe in.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:43 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 32,107,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNLV09 View Post
Drawing lines would be a very complicated issue that would have to involve a lot of negotiating and other considerations.
So in other words the issue is as cut and dry as you have been pretending it to be, yet you have the temerity to call me naive! Stunning!

Quote:
Being that conservatives are liberal in found in every county in every state, if some people wanted to live under their party of choice, they would have to move. It has been done before in other nations. And throughout history people have sacrificed much more than a move for the sake of their political ideologies. I know I'd move a few states away to not have to live under a regime I didn't believe in.
Brilliant! Yes, let's look at the historical examples. Which would you like to choose from the partition of India and Pakistan 250,000 to 500,000 five subsequent wars and border tensions to this day. How about Cyprus, or Korea. Maybe Palestine, Sudan, Eritrea, the Balkans, Chechnya, or the Ukraine. Did I mention Vietnam? You're right there are a lot of great fracking examples to choose from.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
3,849 posts, read 3,973,037 times
Reputation: 6504
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
No; it's not.

Nope; you're wrong there too.
Well aside from the nutjob's found only at the fringe and edges.

The VAST majority, easily 60-70% of us, are in the moderate middle...
and in nearly universal agreement with each other on all but the rather few hot button social issues.

Issues that only some of those same nutjob's on the fringes and edges work so diligently
to inflate the importance of and use to create the sense of division you describe.

hth
We can probably all agree about the moderate 60-70%. But it is the Republican party that PRACTICES the radical. Look at their appalling performance in Congress during the summer! The entire Obama term, they are doing nothing but fillibustering! They have no agenda to help the country, only to destroy Obama (or the next DEM). And they are getting away with it!

There are no nutjob fringes on the Left with any influence. The nutjob fringes on the Right are in the center of the party. Why is this beyond FOX News being good at what it does?

Congress is dysfunctional, unable to tackle any problems properly because only one party is interested. This is beyond shameful, treasoness if you ask me.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Illinois Delta
5,763 posts, read 4,356,375 times
Reputation: 2060
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNLV09 View Post
Drawing lines would be a very complicated issue that would have to involve a lot of negotiating and other considerations. Being that conservatives are liberal in found in every county in every state, if some people wanted to live under their party of choice, they would have to move. It has been done before in other nations. And throughout history people have sacrificed much more than a move for the sake of their political ideologies. I know I'd move a few states away to not have to live under a regime I didn't believe in.
You seem to have missed the entire reason for the founding of America. You know, that whole "E pluribus unum" thing.
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