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Whatever you have to tell yourself is between you and your alternative reality.
I see you simply don't want to believe your lying eyes. For everyone else, here it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto
How soon they forget, or at least think that the rest of have:
From Foreign Policy, January 18, 2009
Conservatives now like to claim the SOFA as a "Bush-negotiated" success. But Bush entered the SOFA negotiations looking for something entirely different than what emerged at the end. The U.S. went into the SOFA talks intent on obtaining legitimacy for a long-term military presence in Iraq once the Security Council mandate ended. When negotiations began, it was widely assumed that Bush would extract from the Iraqis an agreement which made the removal of U.S. troops entirely contingent upon American assessments of conditions on the ground. There were widespread discussions of permanent U.S. bases and a Korea-style presence for generations, an assumption that the U.S. would retain a free hand in its operations, and an absolute rejection of an Obama-style timeline for withdrawal.
But Iraqi leaders, to most everyone's surprise, took a hard line in the negotiations. Their tough line was encouraged by Iran, no doubt, as stressed by many frustrated American commentators. But it also reflected Iraqi domestic considerations, including several rounds of upcoming elections and an intensely strong popular Iraqi hostility to the U.S. occupation under any name. The Iraqis were also helped by the calender. As negotiations dragged on, the December 31 deadline loomed large, threatening to leave the U.S. troops without any legal mandate to remain in the country and forcing the hand of American negotiators. Finally, the Iraqi leaders clearly kept a careful eye on the American Presidential elections and used Obama's stance to strengthen their own hand in negotiations.
Since you can provide this information, is there a chance that you can provide a link to what the generals on the ground in Iraq said about all this and when they thought we should be leaving? Please post it when you find it.
Since when do generals get to make foreign policy?
Iraq is a political AND economic problem now, not a military one.
Thankfully we have 1 sane Republican running in Ron Paul!
Really now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall84
Let's see Obama Elected 2008 took office January 2009. Takes him 2 years and 9 months to do something he promised would be one of the first things he did in office. Yeahhhh.....
It's a little more difficult to end an occupation than you might think.
You don't go in one day and have it ended the next. Imagine the logistics involved, if you can.
Would I liked to have seen it happen earlier? Certainly.
But I have at least one foot in reality.
Who was negotiating that agreement? Was it Obama or Bush?
Now looky here. When was the agreement negotiated? Yup, after Mr. Out of Iraq in 16 months was elected. Bush masterfully, got an agreement that went 24 months. The reason the Iraqis gave for the limited agreement. The newly elected Presidents timeline! I know this is rather complicated for you, but everyone else gets it.
I see you simply don't want to believe your lying eyes. For everyone else, here it is.
Now whose eyes are lying:
The portions that you didn't highlight.
From Foreign Policy, January 18, 2009
But Iraqi leaders, to most everyone's surprise, took a hard line in the negotiations. Their tough line was encouraged by Iran, no doubt, as stressed by many frustrated American commentators. But it also reflected Iraqi domestic considerations, including several rounds of upcoming elections and an intensely strong popular Iraqi hostility to the U.S. occupation under any name. The Iraqis were also helped by the calender. As negotiations dragged on, the December 31 deadline loomed large, threatening to leave the U.S. troops without any legal mandate to remain in the country and forcing the hand of American negotiators. Finally, the Iraqi leaders clearly kept a careful eye on the American Presidential elections and used Obama's stance to strengthen their own hand in negotiations.
Now looky here. When was the agreement negotiated? Yup, after Mr. Out of Iraq in 16 months was elected. Bush masterfully, got an agreement that went 24 months. The reason the Iraqis gave for the limited agreement. The newly elected Presidents timeline! I know this is rather complicated for you, but everyone else gets it.
So now you're blaming Obama for Bush's failure to negotiate?
But Iraqi leaders, to most everyone's surprise, took a hard line in the negotiations. Their tough line was encouraged by Iran, no doubt, as stressed by many frustrated American commentators. But it also reflected Iraqi domestic considerations, including several rounds of upcoming elections and an intensely strong popular Iraqi hostility to the U.S. occupation under any name. The Iraqis were also helped by the calender. As negotiations dragged on, the December 31 deadline loomed large, threatening to leave the U.S. troops without any legal mandate to remain in the country and forcing the hand of American negotiators. Finally, the Iraqi leaders clearly kept a careful eye on the American Presidential elections and used Obama's stance to strengthen their own hand in negotiations.
Correct, those things have clearly changed in the last 2 years. Iran, is a pariah, Muqtada al-sadar is no longer a factor, and there isn't the widespread agitation to get rid of the US now.
Correct, those things have clearly changed in the last 2 years. Iran, is a pariah, Muqtada al-sadar is no longer a factor, and there isn't the widespread agitation to get rid of the US now.
So now you're blaming Obama for Bush's failure to negotiate?
Look, I am not going to continue a circular conversation with you. You can't understand it, but even the most dim reader can understand the link I provided.
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