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Old 09-30-2007, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,287,410 times
Reputation: 15285

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don D. View Post
Kick stand up this morning at 7:00 a.m., first light, double T-Shirt under a thicker long-sleeved one. Haven't ridden for a few months. South to Raymond (Battle Of), trying to keep my pipes silent due to the gathering at many churches along the road.

One of my favorite places...marked by a tiny white sign which says "Confederate Cemetery". I know the place so well, every inch of it, have picked up stones and placed them reverently, have brought others from stained to brilliant white. Counted the markers as I always do and saluted the high pole, this time flying the Third National.....It's changed out periodically.

I laid down on my back alongside all these dead men and thought about this gathering of opinions, this thread, the sincere comments, the inflamatory ones, the blasphemy, the reverent, the insulting, the opaque and the oblique.

It occurred to me that I ought to do something. And that is to admit that all of the detractors on this thread are right. They are right when they say that thousands of rednecks and hoodlums and racists fly various flags associated with The Confederacy. We need to admit that.

But the larger and more underlying point is that these hoodlums and rednecks and other bastards who have hijacked and stolen-away the various flags of the Confederacy have no right to them. Nor do they have a right to hold them high, pretending they have meaning to them and to ride around acting asses insulting me and the rest of us with their screaming dishoner.

I dare say if we would pull over a representative sampling of pickup trucks displaying the first, second or third Confederate National flag, the Bonnie Blue, the Confederate Naval Jack or any of the other sixteen or more flags representing the Confederacy, not one out of a hundred would have a clue in hell as to the authority, identity, definition or meaning of the flag they display.

So, can we finally all agree, as has been said multiple times here, that the Flags have different meanings to different people? To some, as illustrated in the penultimate paragraph, they have no meaning whatever. To others, they mean something perhaps not at all associated with the Confederacy and its principles. Yet to a few of us, the flags have serious historical relevance and importance and are tied firmly to heritage.

But, we will never get anywhere claiming that display of these flags has some sort of universal horror or ignorance or racist intent. People who display what is referred to as 'Rebel Tags' typically have no idea what the flag means or what any of the other flags of the Confederacy meant or mean. I reckon their ignorance is not their fault....although I wonder.

And I understand how the objectors in this discussion find fault with those people. I agree that they're ignorant. They have no idea what any of the flags meant 150 years ago or what they mean today. Too many of them simply bolt a flag on and holler 'Yee Hah' and dare others to confront them. I am offended by those people too.

And, having made these admissions, please understand that there are thousands of us who do sincerely approach a serious study of the history and how it all happened and what it all meant then and now. Please don't ridicule us for that serious journey. We are not ignorant rednecks and we are not racists. We are simply tied inextricably to our ancestors and have a heartfelt yearning desire to go back mentally in time and feel their feelings and know their thoughts and understand their principles.

Can we at least agree on this and stop insulting one another?
Good post. Good thoughts.

I would like to clarify something, however, if you are referring to me as the author of "the penultimate paragraph" who thinks that the study of this part of our history and its symbols has "no meaning": my interest in this part of our national story is deep and sincere. I have toured the battlefields of that war many times, with my sons when they were young, and I know that it was meaningful to them, since now that they are university graduates they have a better grasp of the facts, and a more sophisticated insight into that era than I do.

Although I am a Yankee born and bred, my great-great-great-Grandfather was a sergeant with the 8th Virginia Volunteer Infantry, and made it to the stone wall at Gettysburg in Pickett's Charge before being wounded and captured. I had other relatives in another regiment (the 17th Virginia), as well -- so my family has a personal connection to those days and that culture.

Like many, I struggle with the lessons we can take from that long-ago conflict. I have studied a little, and read some, and as a combat veteran, I am acquainted with the valor of Southern men under fire.

Having said all this, I emphasize that I am not interested in insulting anyone. I am old enough to know how little I know about the true nature of the Confederacy and its enduring symbols and heritage. Note that I have made no reference to the southern flags and engaged the Texas gentleman on a question of Constitutionality only.

To conclude: your post comes closest to the level of dialogue that I would like to see in addressing this topic. Than you for reminding us that there is a side to this that deserves a consideration deeper than partisan bickering.

 
Old 09-30-2007, 07:07 PM
 
6,565 posts, read 14,273,217 times
Reputation: 3229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Article I, Section 10:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation..."

Did you miss that one?
As has already been brought to your attention, you are taking this out of context.. We could just as easily turn to the Declaration of Independence and start all over with "When in the Course of Human Events, it becomes necessary........" as far as secession was concerned.

How can a Nation founded upon the premise of overthrowing a government that it felt overstepped it's bounds possibly feel it fair to prevent a portion of it's new nation from feeling the same and doing the same.

The victor writes the history. That is plain and that is what occurred.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 07:12 PM
 
6,565 posts, read 14,273,217 times
Reputation: 3229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don D. View Post
Kick stand up this morning at 7:00 a.m., first light, double T-Shirt under a thicker long-sleeved one. Haven't ridden for a few months. South to Raymond (Battle Of), trying to keep my pipes silent due to the gathering at many churches along the road.

One of my favorite places...marked by a tiny white sign which says "Confederate Cemetery". I know the place so well, every inch of it, have picked up stones and placed them reverently, have brought others from stained to brilliant white. Counted the markers as I always do and saluted the high pole, this time flying the Third National.....It's changed out periodically.

I laid down on my back alongside all these dead men and thought about this gathering of opinions, this thread, the sincere comments, the inflamatory ones, the blasphemy, the reverent, the insulting, the opaque and the oblique.

It occurred to me that I ought to do something. And that is to admit that all of the detractors on this thread are right. They are right when they say that thousands of rednecks and hoodlums and racists fly various flags associated with The Confederacy. We need to admit that.

But the larger and more underlying point is that these hoodlums and rednecks and other bastards who have hijacked and stolen-away the various flags of the Confederacy have no right to them. Nor do they have a right to hold them high, pretending they have meaning to them and to ride around acting asses insulting me and the rest of us with their screaming dishoner.

I dare say if we would pull over a representative sampling of pickup trucks displaying the first, second or third Confederate National flag, the Bonnie Blue, the Confederate Naval Jack or any of the other sixteen or more flags representing the Confederacy, not one out of a hundred would have a clue in hell as to the authority, identity, definition or meaning of the flag they display.

So, can we finally all agree, as has been said multiple times here, that the Flags have different meanings to different people? To some, as illustrated in the penultimate paragraph, they have no meaning whatever. To others, they mean something perhaps not at all associated with the Confederacy and its principles. Yet to a few of us, the flags have serious historical relevance and importance and are tied firmly to heritage.

But, we will never get anywhere claiming that display of these flags has some sort of universal horror or ignorance or racist intent. People who display what is referred to as 'Rebel Tags' typically have no idea what the flag means or what any of the other flags of the Confederacy meant or mean. I reckon their ignorance is not their fault....although I wonder.

And I understand how the objectors in this discussion find fault with those people. I agree that they're ignorant. They have no idea what any of the flags meant 150 years ago or what they mean today. Too many of them simply bolt a flag on and holler 'Yee Hah' and dare others to confront them. I am offended by those people too.

And, having made these admissions, please understand that there are thousands of us who do sincerely approach a serious study of the history and how it all happened and what it all meant then and now. Please don't ridicule us for that serious journey. We are not ignorant rednecks and we are not racists. We are simply tied inextricably to our ancestors and have a heartfelt yearning desire to go back mentally in time and feel their feelings and know their thoughts and understand their principles.

Can we at least agree on this and stop insulting one another?
Really CAN we stop right here??? It says what all are attempting to say and I thank you for saying it.

Seiously take individuals like Thomas Jackson. Read up on the man and tell me how this man could be a racist pig. How he could be evil. How he could fight so valiantly for the right to keep men in bondage.

Fact is this had nothing to do with why most did this. He has no reason for dishonor by having the flag he died under discarded as simply a racist symbol. I'm of a firm belief that we need a Civil War monument in D.C. where all are honored. If for no other reason than they fought for what they thought was their country. Even if in the end it proved to be the same country.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Charlotte,NC, US, North America, Earth, Alpha Quadrant,Milky Way Galaxy
3,770 posts, read 7,530,045 times
Reputation: 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAFury View Post
A little sociological experiment that I run continuously is to fly the Stars and Bars in front of my house, or the Bonnie Blue, or ANY Confederate Flag other than the battle flag/naval insignia.... What I've determined primarily is that it is THAT flag. The ONE flag that people have a problem with.

Why is that??? Ignorance of the fact that the other flags are also symbolic of the Confederacy??? Or is it deeper than that??? That maybe it isn't the Confederacy that people are taking issue with necessarily, but what that flag has been used to represent since....

Oh sure, those on here that are making the opposite argument will surely say they find them all equally offensive, but then that is because they have to for to not say so would be to concede the argument entirely.

Another point of note is that when the Confederate Battle Flag/Naval insignia (Truth is that the one everyone sees is the naval insignia, but people don't realize... The battle flag was square in shape) is flown by someone or some group in the North somewhere it almost ALWAYS is a symbol of hate. No wonder they figure that's all it can mean because their own racist bretheren are draping themselves in it and basking in their own ignorance.....

We believe that which we see every day. I've split time between living in the North and South (and time in Florida which doesn't count as either... ). I'm a converted Yankee basically half of my family is from Connecticut and the other from Kentucky (but definately the Confederate half).... I used to believe in the saviors that were the Union Army and the bad bad men clad in Gray. No more. IMO one must really be a student of the war to truly understand, and one must live among southerners to understand the concepts of Pride, Honor, etc..... VERY abstract concepts for sure, but worth fighting for if they're what one ascribes to... These concepts are a large part of the story and at the very crux of the matter. They encompass State's Rights and with it, sadly, slavery. But a central point is, "You are NOT going to tell us what we can and can't do and along with it imply that you are somehow better than we are.".

Flame away, because those who gloss over and don't even attempt to understand this will respond as though they've just read the Latin version of the Old Testament.

Actually a very good post. Probably one of my favorite periods (from a historical perspective) is the civil war, and one of my top 3 most respected Presidents is President Lincoln.

You got to know the history before really jumping down the throat of those who really believe it's a flag representing heritage. Pretty much what VA pointed out is what makes that period interesting, and even more of a mystery that the nation eventually survived it. It was brother against brother- it was more importantly what do with the expanding westward terrorities- would they be free or slave terrorities? It was a battle of economic systems as usually most wars are.

I think all would agree there was a lot of death, a lot of people lost loved ones. What I'm amazed by when looking at other wars, is that American/German, American/Viet-Kong, etc. can meet years later and most instances embrace in tears- "War is Hell".

The confederate flag, let those who want to fly it, fly it, I still believe that if you asked them, they'll answer they are Americans and the "Star and Stripes" supercedes the "Stars and Bars"....
 
Old 09-30-2007, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,287,410 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAFury View Post
As has already been brought to your attention, you are taking this out of context.. We could just as easily turn to the Declaration of Independence and start all over with "When in the Course of Human Events, it becomes necessary........" as far as secession was concerned.

How can a Nation founded upon the premise of overthrowing a government that it felt overstepped it's bounds possibly feel it fair to prevent a portion of it's new nation from feeling the same and doing the same.

The victor writes the history. That is plain and that is what occurred.
That is a confusing response. Are you implying that the Constitution was adopted AFTER the Civil War?
 
Old 09-30-2007, 08:19 PM
 
6,565 posts, read 14,273,217 times
Reputation: 3229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
That is a confusing response. Are you implying that the Constitution was adopted AFTER the Civil War?
No, I'm implying that this nation's very Declaration of Independence states the exact reasons why the South ALSO thought it correct to rebel and separate from a government that it felt was intrusive.

Understand that document was also written by a Virginian and OH let the sparks fly!!!!! And some ask why????
 
Old 09-30-2007, 08:22 PM
 
6,565 posts, read 14,273,217 times
Reputation: 3229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miker2069 View Post
Actually a very good post. Probably one of my favorite periods (from a historical perspective) is the civil war, and one of my top 3 most respected Presidents is President Lincoln.

You got to know the history before really jumping down the throat of those who really believe it's a flag representing heritage. Pretty much what VA pointed out is what makes that period interesting, and even more of a mystery that the nation eventually survived it. It was brother against brother- it was more importantly what do with the expanding westward terrorities- would they be free or slave terrorities? It was a battle of economic systems as usually most wars are.

I think all would agree there was a lot of death, a lot of people lost loved ones. What I'm amazed by when looking at other wars, is that American/German, American/Viet-Kong, etc. can meet years later and most instances embrace in tears- "War is Hell".

The confederate flag, let those who want to fly it, fly it, I still believe that if you asked them, they'll answer they are Americans and the "Star and Stripes" supercedes the "Stars and Bars"....
Quoted for accurracy.... Let ALL those that died in that war be honored as they should.... To simply say they died to keep a man in bondage is to disgrace it all.... That was NEVER the point.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 08:28 PM
 
14,993 posts, read 23,824,916 times
Reputation: 26513
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
But anyway, the point is, MY point is valid if and only if one believes that that secession was in violation of the voluntary agreement and compact later known as the Constitution. If not, then not. If so, why not?
)
Yeah I figured I was talking out of context. Man 58 pages of posts, who has time to look at all that? But anyways I will use Lincoln's response to that argument (had to get that from my worn copy of Shelby Foote's civil war history, I'm halfway through the 3,000 page, 3 volume set) - "It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in it's organic law for it's own termination...no state upon its own mere motion can get out of the Union" and "I shall take care, as the Constitutiion itself expressly enjoins upon me, that the laws of the Union be faithfully executed in all that states...the power confided in me will be used to hold, occupy, and posses the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and imposts".

In other words what Lincoln was say was - the Consititution, except for some warped translations, does not permit a state to leave for reasons that should be obvious - it would result in its destruction. And then he went into what was specified and allowed in the constituion - presidential rights to enforce it's laws and put down rebellions.

It should be noted the world community at the time recognized this - The CSA were never recognized as a nation.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,287,410 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAFury View Post
No, I'm implying that this nation's very Declaration of Independence states the exact reasons why the South ALSO thought it correct to rebel and separate from a government that it felt was intrusive.

Understand that document was also written by a Virginian and OH let the sparks fly!!!!! And some ask why????
Again, I'm not sure I understand your point. Comparing "taxation without representation" to the failure of the South to have a voting majority in Congress is, to my mind, a false analogy.

I agree with you that the brilliant minds of the south -- especially from Virginia -- were crucial to the foundation of our republic. But I am attracted to the idea that they represented the final flowering of the English Enlightenment rather than any new or "revolutionary" way of thinking.

At any rate, ths is an interesting topic when people stop yelling at each other.
 
Old 09-30-2007, 09:33 PM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,733 posts, read 15,907,904 times
Reputation: 2869
This thread seems to go on and on. I think the lessions are learned. It IS important to look at our past, otherwise, we are doomed to repete it ,.........but , that said , lets look at what is going on NOW. This country is in sad shape, we should all be mad as hell and should not stand for what is going on. Our freedoms are passing before our eyes, does anyone care ?.......we should. lets put down the flags , and take to the streets , before its too late, maybe it already is..........
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