Self esteem movement (interview, legal, companies, politicians)
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You see these lopsided scores a lot more now with kids these days because sports has turned into such an obsession in our society. Before they just divvied up the kids and play ball. Now even at Little League level you see a lot of parents getting their kids on the "ringer team" to groom them so they can be the next great pro athlete. I have read some unbelievable stories about changing zoning areas to accomodate certain kids on certain teams. It is ridiculous. Part of it also is because now they are televising highschool games and even little league games. So gamblers get involved. And all of a sudden what used to be a fun afternoon watching the kids play ball has been tainted. Very unfortunate.
You are absolutely right Bily4. I am glad to finally be able to agree with you about something.
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Originally Posted by TriMT7
In soccer we had a "mercy" rule.... if you made it to 7 - 0 or something like that, the game was simply called and everyone went home.
If you ask me, it's a practical thing. At a certain point, kids on sports teams see the writing on the wall, and simply stop putting the effort in because they know at 20-1, or 7-0 in soccer, it's just not worth it.
And that would be exactly why we have so many whiney ass children, and adults for that matter. If you don't want your children to ever lose at sports then don't have them play. That "mercy" rule is part of the problem.
A lot of pee wee leagues etc. don't even keep score.
They should just have a slaughter rule and be done with it.
I really don't see why this is such a big deal.
I agree that a more serious issue is the academic tests where you can hide that you and your school just aren't getting the job done.
I tell you if my kids were turning in shaky grades (and they have on occasion) that they'd get an extra 1/2 hour of work on that topic each night until they got their numbers up.
The biggest determinant is the family, second is the school...the kids personality, natural gifts etc. fall somewhere in there too.
Well, now that I know about "running up the score" being unsportsmanlike...I understand that humiliation is to be avoided and I agree with that. I guess that is what you mean by a slaughter rule. I agree there should be one.
Why I think this story is a "big deal" is that the parents demanded the score be set back to 0-0. This not only tells the kids who lost that it doesn't matter that they lost but it tells the kids that were better, that may have practiced harder or had more natural talent that their efforts were for NOTHING. I think that is a very big deal.
And that would be exactly why we have so many whiney ass children, and adults for that matter. If you don't want your children to ever lose at sports then don't have them play. That "mercy" rule is part of the problem.
Oh give me a break. It's the American way to whine, and has been since we became a sedentary population of consumers. The baby boomers and their predecessors didn't have "mercy rules" yet I live in one of the largest concentrations of crotchety, constant complaining and carping middle aged and elderly populations in the country. Sure heckuva lotta good it did THEM!
I agree with not running up the score. Even on the college level, once you know you have won, send in the kids who don't get that much playing time. This is done on the college level all the time.
Other than that, these kids are in the workforce. I had to fire a young man for not following instructions, not showing up on time, doing nothing at work, etc. His response was that I should have been doing more to raise his self-esteem.
I recently heard (Dennis Prager radio program) about a situation in SoCal, Orange County, I think....that makes me realize the self esteem movement has finally reached it's bottom.
Basically two kids baseball teams were playing. I think the kids were 10-12 years old and one team kept making homeruns. After the score turned to 20 - 1 (or something like that) the parents of the losing team asked that the scoreboard be turned to 0-0 for the rest of the game...SO THE KIDS WOULDN'T GET THEIR FEELINGS HURT. What is even more mind boggling is that the coaches had so little authority they had to go along with this insanity.
This trend is just hurting kids, IMHO. Lately, every kid gets a trophy during any competition...screw the kids that actually are the best and deserve the trophy. This creates a large pool of mediocre kids that act like entitled fools. If I run into another 17 year old "gifted" kid, that is anything but, whose parents have convinced them that they are brilliant (even though they have crappy grades and have no particular talents other than playing video games)...I may collapse.
What happens to these kids when they go to college? Nobody is going to care about their "feelings" or if they show up or not. And then later, in the work force....I guess their parents had better fix up the basement, because those "gifted" losers will never be able to compete in the market place and never be able to take care of themselves.
Okay, rant over. Anyone here experience this trend? Or do you think I'm imagining how prevalent the trend is. Also, what I'd really like is to hear from anyone that actually thinks this kind of thing is good for kids. Maybe I'm missing something.
Not surprisingly, a lot of younger people raised with this kind of mollycoddling expect it in college, too. And unfortunately, they actually receive it to a greater extent than you might think. It's nothing unusual for a person to be graduated from a four-year college now while hardly being able to write a coherent English sentence.
Not surprisingly, a lot of younger people raised with this kind of mollycoddling expect it in college, too. And unfortunately, they actually receive it to a greater extent than you might think. It's nothing unusual for a person to be graduated from a four-year college now while hardly being able to write a coherent English sentence.
I taught various marketing courses at the University of Texas for 6 years and my personal experience confirms your claims. Kids felt entitled to high grades, almost without any relation to the work they had put into their projects or the amount of studying they did.
This sense of entitlement clearly has been around a long time because I was teaching university classes in the early 1990s. So the high school coddling must have been going on since the late 1980s (or longer).
But in sports, running up the score is unsportsmanlike. That's an unwritten rule and it's been around forever. I frequently play backgammon with one of my neighbors and when we know who's going to win a game (by mathematical certainty) then the loser concedes and we start a new game. This makes sense. It's pointless to continue playing a softball game when the score is 25-3 in the 6th inning. Sorry, team with the 3, but you lost. Get over it, move on, figure out how you can improve your game and call it a night.
I started seeing that "entitled" behavior not too long after the advent of the Hold Back Kids With Summer Birthdays trend. In Denver when my kids were in elementary school, the cut-off date for kindergarten was Sept 15, and many summer birthday kids, especially boys, would be held back by their over-protective (yet ambitious) helicopter parents.
I can't tell you how many prima donna boys I've seen. They have never failed because they have never really been challenged.
Of course some children are helped by being left back. But sometimes all it does is create a false sense of confidence.
What infuriates me is that with NCLB, the tests become the curriculum, and in this business of trying to make everything "equal," we've dumbed down everything. Our best and brightest kids, the truly gifted, never get what they really need. But the politicians sure get to look like they're doing something. This is called Influence Without Responsibility.
I agree with Harvester and Tri about decent sportsmanship, and not running up the score.
A funny example: many years ago my husband's soccer team (they were young guys then) played against Denver's professional soccer team. They were getting killed. The professional team ended up offering to trade goalies.
It made the game a lot more fun, and everyone had a good time.
I started seeing that "entitled" behavior not too long after the advent of the Hold Back Kids With Summer Birthdays trend. In Denver when my kids were in elementary school, the cut-off date for kindergarten was Sept 15, and many summer birthday kids, especially boys, would be held back by their over-protective (yet ambitious) helicopter parents.
With all due respect to your excellent post, there are cases in which "holding back" is the wise thing to do. I have a grand-niece who was way ahead of her grade level academically but she was smaller and more emotionally immature compared to her classmates. Her parents (my nephew and his wife) made the choice to hold her back a year, and she's much happier now.
Would be very interested in anyone's comments about this. My general commentary is that social trends are different from the needs of the individual child. Going back to the original theme of self-esteem, we can see how every child's needs are unique and the problem pointed out from the start of this thread is a problem of group identity and social norms rather than personal choices and family responsibility.
I'm packing a lot of ideas into a few short sentences but I hope y'all can get what I'm saying.
With all due respect to your excellent post, there are cases in which "holding back" is the wise thing to do. I have a grand-niece who was way ahead of her grade level academically but she was smaller and more emotionally immature compared to her classmates. Her parents (my nephew and his wife) made the choice to hold her back a year, and she's much happier now.
Would be very interested in anyone's comments about this. My general commentary is that social trends are different from the needs of the individual child. Going back to the original theme of self-esteem, we can see how every child's needs are unique and the problem pointed out from the start of this thread is a problem of group identity and social norms rather than personal choices and family responsibility.
I'm packing a lot of ideas into a few short sentences but I hope y'all can get what I'm saying.
Your niece would be me many more years ago than I would care to disclose. The school overruled my parents, who wanted to hold me back. I suffered tremendously, but I was not allowed to use that as an excuse for the rest of my life. I think that the parents should do, and be able to do, what is in the best interests of the child, and forget the trends.
What happens to these kids when they go to college? Nobody is going to care about their "feelings" or if they show up or not.
I actually go to college, and the honest fact is that there are so many of these "entitled" kids that they've seemed to bonded together and form an ultra power-clique influence on this campus. As for those who are more academically qualified, it seems that those individuals have become the minority and outcasted (which is basically the remnant of high school). And I, for one, am getting damned pissed about it. What happened to the days of 4-year colleges being the gathering of those who had knowledge, talent, and skill?
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Originally Posted by Bellinghamite
Not surprisingly, a lot of younger people raised with this kind of mollycoddling expect it in college, too. And unfortunately, they actually receive it to a greater extent than you might think. It's nothing unusual for a person to be graduated from a four-year college now while hardly being able to write a coherent English sentence.
So true. And isn't it ironic that many of these kids come from families that have extensive connections, lots of money, and can land a $75,000+ salary right out of college.
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And then later, in the work force....I guess their parents had better fix up the basement, because those "gifted" losers will never be able to compete in the market place and never be able to take care of themselves.
It seems that these same parents set their kids set up with to work for a family friend or with them after college, so no worries about not having merit or skill. It's all about the social connections where I'm from.
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Anyone here experience this trend? Or do you think I'm imagining how prevalent the trend is.
Not really. This reminds me of a time when I won a trivia competition back in elementary school. I remembered the awards ceremony being so friggin long, giving out these various awards before getting to the 1-3 place awards.
Last edited by Do a Barrel Roll; 08-26-2007 at 03:31 PM..
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