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People like this drives me to be a conservative.. Just because things are bad in america, that doesnt mean liberalism is right if its liberalism causing things to be so dam bad
Fair enough, but what makes you think liberalism is the cause of what's bad in this country? For the majority of this country, things starting turning bad in the late 70s and never recovered. We've been plagued with mostly republican policies during that time period - taxes have gone steadily down, government services have become harder to obtain, corporations have been allowed to run roughshod over workers and consumers, etc. Our current "liberal" leader, policy-wise, is to the right of Reagan, Nixon, and Eisenhower and more or less on par with George HW Bush (actually, that Bush allowed taxes to be raised, so scratch that).
Fair enough, but what makes you think liberalism is the cause of what's bad in this country? For the majority of this country, things starting turning bad in the late 70s and never recovered. We've been plagued with mostly republican policies during that time period - taxes have gone steadily down, government services have become harder to obtain, corporations have been allowed to run roughshod over workers and consumers, etc. Our current "liberal" leader, policy-wise, is to the right of Reagan, Nixon, and Eisenhower and more or less on par with George HW Bush (actually, that Bush allowed taxes to be raised, so scratch that).
Because liberalsm, and the programs which come from liberalism, cant exist without first taking money from they very same society which liberals claim is "the enemy", and doing so comes at a cost to society, its not free.
Since the 1970's, Democrats have held Congress 75% of the time, so where do you think its been Republican policies pushing forward todays society? Obamacare alone took over 1/6th of the nations economy in one felt swoop piece of legislation.
Taxes have not gone steadily down, simply transferred how it was collected. The size of government has doubled in the last 10 years alone, and that doesnt take place by reducing government. Deficit spending only equates to some of the increase in the size of government, but how do you grow government into what we have today without tax increases? You cant possibly tell me you think taxes are lower today than before because anyone who think sthat doesnt know the difference between an effective tax rate, and a marginal one.
Government services havent been hard to obtain either. In the 1980's, welfare consisted of a block of cheese, box of powered milk, and a jar of peanutbutter. Are you really going to tell me seriously you think its harder now and you think conservatives created the welfare society we have today?
And corporations have been allowed to run amock simply because government has reduced competition and has pushed corporations overseas.
And your claims that Obama is right of Reagan is hogwash and not even worth of a response unless you can list some comparable policies where this is true.
I am conservative because I work hard and I will spend my money as I choose.
So do I.
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Originally Posted by pghquest
Because liberalsm, and the programs which come from liberalism, cant exist without first taking money from they very same society which liberals claim is "the enemy", and doing so comes at a cost to society, its not free.
Since the 1970's, Democrats have held Congress 75% of the time, so where do you think its been Republican policies pushing forward todays society? Obamacare alone took over 1/6th of the nations economy in one felt swoop piece of legislation.
Taxes have not gone steadily down, simply transferred how it was collected. The size of government has doubled in the last 10 years alone, and that doesnt take place by reducing government. Deficit spending only equates to some of the increase in the size of government, but how do you grow government into what we have today without tax increases? You cant possibly tell me you think taxes are lower today than before because anyone who think sthat doesnt know the difference between an effective tax rate, and a marginal one.
Government services havent been hard to obtain either. In the 1980's, welfare consisted of a block of cheese, box of powered milk, and a jar of peanutbutter. Are you really going to tell me seriously you think its harder now and you think conservatives created the welfare society we have today?
And corporations have been allowed to run amock simply because government has reduced competition and has pushed corporations overseas.
And your claims that Obama is right of Reagan is hogwash and not even worth of a response unless you can list some comparable policies where this is true.
Well, I guess that means Reagan was a pretty crappy and ineffective president, eh?
How is that a response to anything which I posted?
Well, you said that since congress was controlled by the Dems 75% of the time since the 70s, then having Republican presidents didn't matter too much in the whole scheme of things.
Well, you said that since congress was controlled by the Dems 75% of the time since the 70s, then having Republican presidents didn't matter too much in the whole scheme of things.
Read your Constitution because all legislation must originate in Congress and just because Congress originates bills, this doesnt mean Presidents are ineffective to work with them to get legislation passed.
If you think Reagan was ineffective, then whats that make Obama who runs around whining all day about Congress not doing what he wishes?
I've said it before and I'll always say it, Democrats can have the White House all they want, long as the GOP has Congress.
Taxes have not gone steadily down, simply transferred how it was collected.
Federal income taxes have absolutely gone down, especially for the rich. Look at the top marginal rates for the 60s and 70s compared to today. Hell, just look at the rates under Clinton vs. Bush. Not to mention the reclassification of income from investments as capital gains which are taxed at an even lower rate.
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The size of government has doubled in the last 10 years alone, and that doesnt take place by reducing government. Deficit spending only equates to some of the increase in the size of government, but how do you grow government into what we have today without tax increases? You cant possibly tell me you think taxes are lower today than before because anyone who think sthat doesnt know the difference between an effective tax rate, and a marginal one.
Yes, effective tax rates on the wealthy are even lower. The richest pay 15% since most of their income comes from investments, while those earning large salaries are able to deduct quite a bit to get their numbers down. The middle class and poor pay closer to the actual marginal rate.
Look, you're going to have to offer some evidence other than government increasing in size. Bush started two wars and forgot to fund them, so that's a large chunk of deficit spending. Bush and Obama then spend untold trillions bailing out Wall Street, again, without new revenues, meaning via deficit spending. Actual tax revenues as a percentage of GDP haven't changed much at all.
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Government services havent been hard to obtain either. In the 1980's, welfare consisted of a block of cheese, box of powered milk, and a jar of peanutbutter. Are you really going to tell me seriously you think its harder now and you think conservatives created the welfare society we have today?
Source for that? Welfare was massively reformed under Clinton and yes it is harder to collect benefits. Many Americans seem to believe that there's a dole you can get on if you don't want to or can't find work. As far as I know, such a system hasn't existed since at least the Clinton administration. Temporary cash and food benefits are time limited per individual use and also have a rather restrictive time limit for how long they can be used in the entirety of a person's life.
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And corporations have been allowed to run amock simply because government has reduced competition and has pushed corporations overseas.
Corporations have gone overseas because they can pay workers next to nothing. Those jobs won't come back until they can pay Americans a comparably miserable rate.
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And your claims that Obama is right of Reagan is hogwash and not even worth of a response unless you can list some comparable policies where this is true.
In an effort to appease Republicans in the fake debt-ceiling crisis, Obama proposed deep cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid while maintaining Bush-era tax-cuts for the wealthy. He's still proposing deep cuts to social programs now and is apparently willing to put up with only minor tax increases such as closing loopholes on second home mortgage deductions, private jets, etc. Here, do some reading, learn something:
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Over the remainder of his presidency, Reagan would go on to sign a series of such increases, ultimately taking back about half of his 1981 tax cut, according to economist and historian Bruce Bartlett. The 1981 legislation marked a watershed in federal taxation, capping an era of tax cuts and starting a new one of increases. As economist Jerry Tempalski has noted, of the nine major tax laws enacted from 1968 to 1981, six reduced federal revenue. By contrast, nine of the 11 major tax laws introduced from 1982 to 1993 increased revenue.
Central to the conservative worldview is a refusal to recognize that things are ever actually so bad that people don't have a choice. They don't oppose welfare because they hate poor people, they oppose welfare because they think that hardly anyone really needs welfare to survive, and anyone who can't pay their bills without assistance is either wasting money with poor spending decisions or too lazy/stupid to make enough money (because conservatives also think that income is linked to personal merit).
Entitled as they are, they basically can't really understand someone literally having no other choice but to receive welfare or turn to less-legal ways of earning money. They simply just do not realize that things are actually that bad in their beloved US of A, and they'd refuse to believe it if you told them because their worldview basically depends on the belief that things aren't absolutely horrible.
Much of this is based on the so-called "Just world hypothesis". In fact, most conservative beliefs can be traced to this:
The problem with common sense is that it leads to common conclusions. In the best of times, common sense is our bullsh*t detector, the little spot in our brain that says "That doesn’t seem right." In the worst of times, though, it’s that little spot in the brain that says "That seems right" even when it isn’t.
If your young and not a liberal you have no heart.
If your old and not a conservative you have no brains.
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