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Old 11-19-2011, 06:50 PM
 
4,383 posts, read 8,691,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
HELLO? ANYONE HOME? YOU PAY AN INCOME TAX ON THOSE WAGES RIGHT? The fact that the business deducs your salary doesnt mean you arent paying it.
Spend more time reading and less time screaming and you will understand. I said you were taxed on it once, when you pay the income tax. You are not taxed twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
No its not. The success of a business and the "profit" which is derived from it, comes as a result of YOUR LABOR and YOUR CHOICES.. Bad choices, you earn ZERO, good choices, the restaurant earns a profit so you can sell it at a profit.

Both the taxes, i.e. your income tax liability and the capital gains liability from the profit, comes from the EXACT SAME LABOR!
There is no tax on labor only taxes on income. I took the garbage out today how much in taxes do I have to pay?
When you start a business that is successful you receive financial benefits continuously or at different times or all at once and you pay taxes on the benefits as they occur(or annually or quarterly or however often you pay your taxes). Every dollar you earn you pay taxes once on, not twice.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:01 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 53,646,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
Spend more time reading and less time screaming and you will understand. I said you were taxed on it once, when you pay the income tax. You are not taxed twice.
You are ALSO paying CAPITAL GAINS TAXES.

I dont need to spend more time reading, I own NUMEROUS businesses.. How many have you owned? How the hell do you think when you sell a business at a profit, you escape paying taxes AGAIN?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
There is no tax on labor only taxes on income.
You are just being assinine now. In business, you are paid an income FOR YOUR LABOR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
I took the garbage out today how much in taxes do I have to pay?
Are you telling me taking out the trash is a business for you and required you to make an investment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
When you start a business that is successful you receive financial benefits continuously or at different times or all at once and you pay taxes on the benefits as they occur(or annually or quarterly or however often you pay your taxes). Every dollar you earn you pay taxes once on, not twice.
WRONG. Every dollar you earn is taxed AS YOU EARN IT, and then again when you CASH OUT YOUR INVESTMENT. Without that profit YOU EARNED, the investment wouldnt earn a profit and thus you arent subject to capital gains.

The only way your imaginary scenario works is if you can list businesses that can be run without labor. I challenge you to do so.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:05 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,167,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
You are ALSO paying CAPITAL GAINS TAXES.

I dont need to spend more time reading, I own NUMEROUS businesses.. How many have you owned? How the hell do you think when you sell a business at a profit, you escape paying taxes AGAIN? Every dollar you earn is taxed AS YOU EARN IT, and then again when you CASH OUT YOUR INVESTMENT. Without that profit YOU EARNED, the investment wouldnt earn a profit and thus you arent subject to capital gains.
Can you explain these two by example? I don't understand what you are trying to say the way you are explaining it.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Can you explain these two by example? I don't understand what you are trying to say the way you are explaining it.
I'll give you real life examples,
Buy a hotel for $5,000,000, you work that hotel and grow its business, and for that work you receive a paycheck. Your paycheck is taxed as income..

Due to your hard work, in 5 years you are able to sell that hotel for $6,000,000, this $1,000,000 profit is AGAIN taxed.

Thats why capital gains hold a lower tax rate, because you've already paid taxes on the income (i.e. your salary) and the work involved with building the business, and then you pay taxes again on the "profit" of your investment. Its now double taxed because without your hard work, these profits never would have materalized.

If you increase the capital gains rate, then people do what I did this year, which is I sold a hotel by taking a down payment, and then leasing the hotel for 15 years to a buyer, and then I used that lease to go to the bank and refinanced the property putting the equity in my pocket at zero taxes, because borrowed money isnt taxed. The higher the tax rate, the more incentive I have to do these creative deals to avoid taxes. The result is you get a decrease in revenues to the federal government, the exact opposite result of what you intended to receive.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:25 PM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,167,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
I'll give you real life examples,
Buy a hotel for $5,000,000, you work that hotel and grow its business, and for that work you receive a paycheck. Your paycheck is taxed as income..

Due to your hard work, in 5 years you are able to sell that hotel for $6,000,000, this $1,000,000 profit is AGAIN taxed.

Thats why capital gains hold a lower tax rate, because you've already paid taxes on the income (i.e. your salary) and the work involved with building the business, and then you pay taxes again on the "profit" of your investment. Its now double taxed because without your hard work, these profits never would have materalized.
I understand what you are saying now. But you aren't taxed twice. See, you are taxed when you receive your salary (and profits taken at that particular time), but you are not taxed on future profits. Whenever you take future profits, you will be taxed on those future profits.

When you sell your hotel, and make $1,000,000 in capital gains, that is the first time you are realizing the future profits of the business, and thus it is the first time in which you are being taxed.

Taxes are not related to work performed, but rather to income and profits as they are realized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post

If you increase the capital gains rate, then people do what I did this year, which is I sold a hotel by taking a down payment, and then leasing the hotel for 15 years to a buyer, and then I used that lease to go to the bank and refinanced the property putting the equity in my pocket at zero taxes, because borrowed money isnt taxed. The higher the tax rate, the more incentive I have to do these creative deals to avoid taxes, thus decreasing revenues to the federal government, the exact opposite result of what you intended to receive.
This type of creative accounting is what a lot of people are complaining about. If you lowered your tax liability, great, IMO. I do the same, so I can't complain about another doing it.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,712 posts, read 11,026,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
I'll give you real life examples,
Buy a hotel for $5,000,000, you work that hotel and grow its business, and for that work you receive a paycheck. Your paycheck is taxed as income..

Due to your hard work, in 5 years you are able to sell that hotel for $6,000,000, this $1,000,000 profit is AGAIN taxed.

Thats why capital gains hold a lower tax rate, because you've already paid taxes on the income (i.e. your salary) and the work involved with building the business, and then you pay taxes again on the "profit" of your investment. Its now double taxed because without your hard work, these profits never would have materalized.

If you increase the capital gains rate, then people do what I did this year, which is I sold a hotel by taking a down payment, and then leasing the hotel for 15 years to a buyer, and then I used that lease to go to the bank and refinanced the property putting the equity in my pocket at zero taxes, because borrowed money isnt taxed. The higher the tax rate, the more incentive I have to do these creative deals to avoid taxes, thus decreasing revenues to the federal government, the exact opposite result of what you intended to receive.
You are really stretching.

Capital gains and ordinary income (wages, salaries, tips) are different in the tax code.
They are treated differently because those who wrote the code made them different and they were written in a high inflationary time, when an asset held for a few years may have appreciated on paper but had the same real value.

There is no evidence that concludes that raising the capital gains rate to 50% discourages investment. The capital gains rate was 60%/40%, short and long term, respectively through most of the 1980s -- a time when investment in the stock market boomed - five or six times. Those investors were not deterred by the fear of paying taxes. This is confirmed by Warren Buffett, one of the largest and most successful investors:

Quote:
Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.

I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:02 PM
 
4,383 posts, read 8,691,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
You are ALSO paying CAPITAL GAINS TAXES.

I dont need to spend more time reading, I own NUMEROUS businesses.. How many have you owned? How the hell do you think when you sell a business at a profit, you escape paying taxes AGAIN?
You do not pay capital gains taxes on wages your business you are paid. When and if the business is sold you will pay taxes on that separately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
You are just being assinine now. In business, you are paid an income FOR YOUR LABOR.
You used the example of a restaurant. When I go to a restaurant, I am buying for instance a chicken sandwich, I am not buying any labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Are you telling me taking out the trash is a business for you and required you to make an investment?
The answer is in the previous post, if you do not understand you should read it again. All the information needed is written. I think you should be able to handle understanding it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
WRONG. Every dollar you earn is taxed AS YOU EARN IT, and then again when you CASH OUT YOUR INVESTMENT.
Every dollar you earn is the result of you exchanging what you produce for money. When you "cash out" you are selling the means of production(be that equipment or designts, instructions or whatever it is). They are not the same thing. I would think such a successful businessman could comprehend this.

Last edited by jdm2008; 11-19-2011 at 08:17 PM..
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:26 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 53,646,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
I understand what you are saying now. But you aren't taxed twice. See, you are taxed when you receive your salary (and profits taken at that particular time), but you are not taxed on future profits. Whenever you take future profits, you will be taxed on those future profits.
There is no future profits without the current salary and labor unless you can list me one business which is run without labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
When you sell your hotel, and make $1,000,000 in capital gains, that is the first time you are realizing the future profits of the business, and thus it is the first time in which you are being taxed.
No, once again, without the labor and work, the $1,000,000 profit would have turned into a substantial loss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Taxes are not related to work performed, but rather to income and profits as they are realized.
Without work performed, you dont realize income and profits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
This type of creative accounting is what a lot of people are complaining about. If you lowered your tax liability, great, IMO. I do the same, so I can't complain about another doing it.
This type of accounting anyone can do regardless of income levels. As I grow older I'll figure out ways to transfer my assets to my estate/children tax free as well due to higher tax liabilities because that brings in yet another level of taxes on my investment which brings the total to
1) One when I earned the money to make the investment
2) When I worked hard to run the company to allow it to grow
3) When I sold the business and received tax liabilities
4) when I then gave those earnings to my children.

Under NO circumstances does the government deserve to get more than my children do from MY work/labor and risks. But dont dare tell a left winger that because they believe all money is governments FIRST and they ALLOW you to keep some.. Ridiculous.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:32 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 53,646,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
You do not pay capital gains taxes on wages your business you are paid. When and if the business is sold you will pay taxes on that separately.
No **** shirlock homes.. I think thats EXACTLy what I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
You used the example of a restaurant. When I go to a restaurant, I am buying for instance a chicken sandwich, I am not buying any labor.
Actually what you are paying for is to compensate the business to provide you that chicken sandwich, and labor IS PART OF THE COST Do you think the kitchen help volunteers their services?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
The answer is in the previous post, if you do not understand you should read it again. All the information needed is written. I think you should be able to handle understanding it.
I more than understand it, I LIVE it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
Every dollar you earn is the result of you exchanging what you produce for money. When you "cash out" you are selling the means of production(be that equipment or designts, instructions or whatever it is). They are not the same thing. I would think such a successful businessman could comprehend this.
One also sells their BUSINESS, which grew due to their LABOR.. Why do you not understand this? Do you still live at home with your mommy and never held a job? I asked you to name ONE business that exists without labor to validate your position. Why havent you?
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:34 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 53,646,153 times
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Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
You are really stretching.

Capital gains and ordinary income (wages, salaries, tips) are different in the tax code.
They are treated differently because those who wrote the code made them different and they were written in a high inflationary time, when an asset held for a few years may have appreciated on paper but had the same real value.
Arent you the very one who tried to tell me that dividends arent capital gains? Tell me how you became a tax expert in the last 2 hours since you made such a ridiculous statement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
There is no evidence that concludes that raising the capital gains rate to 50% discourages investment. The capital gains rate was 60%/40%, short and long term, respectively through most of the 1980s -- a time when investment in the stock market boomed - five or six times. Those investors were not deterred by the fear of paying taxes. This is confirmed by Warren Buffett, one of the largest and most successful investors:
Now that you have stated Warren Buffet is a valid source for discussion, why dont you tell me why Buffet DOES NOT PAY DIVIDENS and why he is donating ALL OF HIS WEALTH?
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