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Old 11-18-2011, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,053 posts, read 13,262,843 times
Reputation: 13869

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
In one of the greatest signs yet that the 99 Percenters are having an impact, Rep. Ted Deutch (D-FL), a member of the House Judiciary Committee, today introduced an amendment that would ban corporate money in politics and end corporate personhood once and for all.
He wasn't the first. A similar amendment was introduced a couple weeks ago. That amendment was useless. This one is marginally better, but still incredibly vague and it allows Congress to regulate it, which defeats the whole purpose.

It looks like a ****-roach wrote the first one, and Deutch's found an alligator to write his.

The language of the amendment must be incredibly precise, and Congresspersons lack the requisite intelligence to write a constitutional amendment with such precision.

A satisfactory amendment that would be barely adequate to achieve a Separation of Corporation and State would include all of the following:

1) prohibition of both money and "in kind equivalents."

"In kind equivalents" would include, but is not limited to, air time on radio, television or cable, low interest loans for candidates, elected officials and their family members, gifts of any kind, air fare, hotel rooms, rental cars, meals, free credit cards, charge cards or coupons (like $20,000 worth of free BP gasoline), etc etc.

2) prohibition in support or in opposition.

It does no good to bar corporations, unions, PACs and special interest groups from contributing campaign money in support of a candidate, only to allow them to contribute to a candidate's opposition.

3) prohibition for both contributions to candidates for nomination for election to, or for election to, any office.

That would include primaries held by political parties, as well as any other situation where candidates are nominated for a position, prior to actually running for such a position.

4) prohibition applies to ballot issues/ballot measures.

That bars money from flowing into local or State-wide referendum issues, like casinos, giving away the public water works to for-profit corporations, and other such lunacy.

That's 4 things right there that show the weaknesses of Deutch's poorly written amendment.

It also needs to be worded so that only "eligible voters" can contribute money or in kind equivalents, so that bars illegal aliens, legal aliens, resident aliens, convicted felons who have not had their voting rights restored, unions, PACs, all publicly traded corporations, private corporations, limited liability companies and partnerships, limited partnerships, general partnerships, not-for-profit entities and special interest groups, like "pro-choice" and "anti-abortion" groups, religious groups, and everything else.

You all need to seriously scrutinize these amendments, because so far, they've all been wolves in sheep's clothing.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,148,122 times
Reputation: 8868
I know you Americans are going to get mad but I just have to say something about this.

The political process in Canada is literally light years ahead of the USA. There are a few reasons for this but I will concentrate on what I feel are the top three.

1, No corporations, unions or special interst groups are allowed to give one single penny to any political party or candidate. Individual Canadians are allowed to and the maximum amount you are allowed is $1100 per year total. This completely takes away the power of these special interests to corrupt the process. Lobbies in the USA can demand that their political hacks vote the way they order them to or they will be cut off the gravy train. In Canada a lobby has to use a different tack altogether. "Mr. Politician, what I am proposing will be good for your district, it will produce these benefits for your electorate and then it should be good for you when it comes election time". Another effect is in the quality of candidates. In the USA there are so many empty shirts put up for election and because they have such a huge amount of money behind them they often get elected even though they don't have one single clue about anything. A politician here in Canada has to get his money from the people and if he is not top notch and on the ball he will get squat and in fact he never would be nominated in the first place. Our politicians mostly go into politics because they care about the country and thery have ideas they feel can make a difference. They are not there because they think they will get rich post politics working for those same special interests like American politicians do. It is in fact illegal for a politician to work for anyone they have delt with while in office for 5 years after leaving government service. Another huge advantage of separating the pols from the money is. Have you ever noticed that election campains go on 24\7 365 days of the year forever in the USA? I think this is just so damaging to the entire process. Instead of doing their job the politicians are on a constant hunt for supporters, money and influence. It creates hyper partisanship which is in the process of sinking the American ship of state as fast as can be imagined. It is also fragmenting the country to a horrible degree, people just don't dislike the other guys, they hate them with a venom that is spewed, again 24\7 365 days of the year over all the airwaves of the country. In Canada our elections start, run and finish in about 5 weeks from end to end and that is painful enough for most Canadians. 5 weeks is all they could run because that is all the money they have.

2, The media, The media in Canada is prevented, by law from reporting falsehoods over the airwaves. If they do they are caught, charged, fined and if they persist they will lose their permit to broadcast. Why do you think we have no FOX or MSNBC stations in this country? They would have to change their entire modus opperendi in order to be here and what they do is all they know. The media has a horrible detrimental effect in the USA and it always has. Even George Washington was slandered and libeled by his opponents. John Adams actually got the unconstitutional "Aliens and sedition act" passed because of this horrible character asasination that was the public discourse of the day. William Randolph Hearst took full credit for forcing the American government into the Spanish American war with his poison pen. You would think that after over 200 years the American public would get wise to the lying propaganda that comes at them from the media bit alas, that does not seem to be the case.

3, My last comment has again to do with money. There are very few Canadian politicians that go into politics for the money. For most it's a step down from their former positions in the financial sence. Because Canadians demand highly qualified people for government, the candidates are most often at the top of their field when they decide to enter public life. Wether it's business, education, civil service or whatever they are top notch. Look at the example of Perry in Texas. Other than being in the military he really has not not done anything in life outside of politics. Not that there is anything wrong with that but he has also made a lot of money on the side mostly in RE investments during that time. You could not do that in Canada. During the time you are in office your business life is over. All of your assets are put into a blind trust and you, the politician are not allowed to make any decisions regarding your business affairs during the time you are in public office. That restriction also applies to civil servants. My uncle, who is a wealthy man accepted an appointment as trade commissoner to the UK. During the 6 years he held that position the blind trust that was responsible for all his business made some bad choices and lost several hundred thousands of dollars. That's just the way it is and it keeps self serving people out of positions where they are supposed to be serving the public and not themselves.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:38 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,468,467 times
Reputation: 3223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
I've long been for publically funding elections. The same money spent on both the D and the R, in a series of debates televised weekly or monthly, so that we can decide between the two. Let the primarys be privately funded. Many more candidates to decide between, so it minimizes corporate money influence.

As far as "corporate personhood", I'm for it, although probably not in the way you mean. The business itself is a series of people, all those who work for the corporation. If things are going so well with the people who work for the corporation, that they all want to donate money to a candidate, then that is the corporate person.

The business itself should not be allowed to donate. But the owner of the corporation should be allowed to use whatever money he is worth and his business is worth and making to back whatever candidate they like personally.

But all that money should be seen as coming from the ONE person when he/she does that.

They hide behind their corporations, the men behind the curtain, pulling the strings.

I want to see their faces, and who they back.
Not for public financing of campaigns. I'm totally okay with private-sector funding of campaigns. I'm even okay with 100 percent of someone's $50 million campaign coming from a handful of donors. Just as long as there's a spending cap, which would work like an NFL or NBA salary cap. It's still ensuring that not just anybody and everybody can enter the race and cause confusion, but the money's not so far out of whack as to corrupt the system entirely.

Even being the lib-tard that I am, I'm okay with corporate person-hood. It's not as simple nor as fiendish as people like to suggest. Corporate persons are recognized as such so that they can sue and operate as entities without involving individuals. This one little distinction within the law encourages individuals to become entrepreneurs. Without it, I think fewer people would be willing to assume the risk that it takes to either open a business or run one that's already established. Corporate persons have their place. The libby in me simply says that we need to control these persons - in ways that we wouldn't natural born persons. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Nothing wrong with corporations inherently, and that's ironically why I'm moderate left: because the irony here is that the die-in-the-wool, get made at anyone who earns a dollar liberals are f*cking OWS retards who have no sense of responsibility. But they're buoyed by the anything-goes conservatives who believe that capitalism should have no rules. If people would just compromise, we could have the best of both worlds. We had that from the 1940s to the 1980s, despite a few hiccups along the way.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:39 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,468,467 times
Reputation: 3223
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I know you Americans are going to get mad but I just have to say something about this.

The political process in Canada is literally light years ahead of the USA. There are a few reasons for this but I will concentrate on what I feel are the top three.

1, No corporations, unions or special interst groups are allowed to give one single penny to any political party or candidate. Individual Canadians are allowed to and the maximum amount you are allowed is $1100 per year total. This completely takes away the power of these special interests to corrupt the process. Lobbies in the USA can demand that their political hacks vote the way they order them to or they will be cut off the gravy train. In Canada a lobby has to use a different tack altogether. "Mr. Politician, what I am proposing will be good for your district, it will produce these benefits for your electorate and then it should be good for you when it comes election time". Another effect is in the quality of candidates. In the USA there are so many empty shirts put up for election and because they have such a huge amount of money behind them they often get elected even though they don't have one single clue about anything. A politician here in Canada has to get his money from the people and if he is not top notch and on the ball he will get squat and in fact he never would be nominated in the first place. Our politicians mostly go into politics because they care about the country and thery have ideas they feel can make a difference. They are not there because they think they will get rich post politics working for those same special interests like American politicians do. It is in fact illegal for a politician to work for anyone they have delt with while in office for 5 years after leaving government service. Another huge advantage of separating the pols from the money is. Have you ever noticed that election campains go on 24\7 365 days of the year forever in the USA? I think this is just so damaging to the entire process. Instead of doing their job the politicians are on a constant hunt for supporters, money and influence. It creates hyper partisanship which is in the process of sinking the American ship of state as fast as can be imagined. It is also fragmenting the country to a horrible degree, people just don't dislike the other guys, they hate them with a venom that is spewed, again 24\7 365 days of the year over all the airwaves of the country. In Canada our elections start, run and finish in about 5 weeks from end to end and that is painful enough for most Canadians. 5 weeks is all they could run because that is all the money they have.

2, The media, The media in Canada is prevented, by law from reporting falsehoods over the airwaves. If they do they are caught, charged, fined and if they persist they will lose their permit to broadcast. Why do you think we have no FOX or MSNBC stations in this country? They would have to change their entire modus opperendi in order to be here and what they do is all they know. The media has a horrible detrimental effect in the USA and it always has. Even George Washington was slandered and libeled by his opponents. John Adams actually got the unconstitutional "Aliens and sedition act" passed because of this horrible character asasination that was the public discourse of the day. William Randolph Hearst took full credit for forcing the American government into the Spanish American war with his poison pen. You would think that after over 200 years the American public would get wise to the lying propaganda that comes at them from the media bit alas, that does not seem to be the case.

3, My last comment has again to do with money. There are very few Canadian politicians that go into politics for the money. For most it's a step down from their former positions in the financial sence. Because Canadians demand highly qualified people for government, the candidates are most often at the top of their field when they decide to enter public life. Wether it's business, education, civil service or whatever they are top notch. Look at the example of Perry in Texas. Other than being in the military he really has not not done anything in life outside of politics. Not that there is anything wrong with that but he has also made a lot of money on the side mostly in RE investments during that time. You could not do that in Canada. During the time you are in office your business life is over. All of your assets are put into a blind trust and you, the politician are not allowed to make any decisions regarding your business affairs during the time you are in public office. That restriction also applies to civil servants. My uncle, who is a wealthy man accepted an appointment as trade commissoner to the UK. During the 6 years he held that position the blind trust that was responsible for all his business made some bad choices and lost several hundred thousands of dollars. That's just the way it is and it keeps self serving people out of positions where they are supposed to be serving the public and not themselves.
I'm not mad. I love Canada.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:39 PM
 
12,439 posts, read 9,959,483 times
Reputation: 3129
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I see why we need corporate 'persons' (they're not fully persons anyway), so I don't want to scrap that.

But I'm with limiting money in politics. Actually, if they'd just limit the amount of campaign spending and if they'd limit the amount of time that political campaigning can take place, we'd have a much better society. We might need to revise how we interpret "speech" but it can be done without injuring the right of real individuals to express themselves freely.

Well I will believe a corporation is a person when either Georgia or Texas electrocutes one of them.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 20,323,976 times
Reputation: 8606
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I know you Americans are going to get mad but I just have to say something about this.

The political process in Canada is literally light years ahead of the USA. There are a few reasons for this but I will concentrate on what I feel are the top three.

1, No corporations, unions or special interst groups are allowed to give one single penny to any political party or candidate. Individual Canadians are allowed to and the maximum amount you are allowed is $1100 per year total. This completely takes away the power of these special interests to corrupt the process. Lobbies in the USA can demand that their political hacks vote the way they order them to or they will be cut off the gravy train. In Canada a lobby has to use a different tack altogether. "Mr. Politician, what I am proposing will be good for your district, it will produce these benefits for your electorate and then it should be good for you when it comes election time". Another effect is in the quality of candidates. In the USA there are so many empty shirts put up for election and because they have such a huge amount of money behind them they often get elected even though they don't have one single clue about anything. A politician here in Canada has to get his money from the people and if he is not top notch and on the ball he will get squat and in fact he never would be nominated in the first place. Our politicians mostly go into politics because they care about the country and thery have ideas they feel can make a difference. They are not there because they think they will get rich post politics working for those same special interests like American politicians do. It is in fact illegal for a politician to work for anyone they have delt with while in office for 5 years after leaving government service. Another huge advantage of separating the pols from the money is. Have you ever noticed that election campains go on 24\7 365 days of the year forever in the USA? I think this is just so damaging to the entire process. Instead of doing their job the politicians are on a constant hunt for supporters, money and influence. It creates hyper partisanship which is in the process of sinking the American ship of state as fast as can be imagined. It is also fragmenting the country to a horrible degree, people just don't dislike the other guys, they hate them with a venom that is spewed, again 24\7 365 days of the year over all the airwaves of the country. In Canada our elections start, run and finish in about 5 weeks from end to end and that is painful enough for most Canadians. 5 weeks is all they could run because that is all the money they have.

2, The media, The media in Canada is prevented, by law from reporting falsehoods over the airwaves. If they do they are caught, charged, fined and if they persist they will lose their permit to broadcast. Why do you think we have no FOX or MSNBC stations in this country? They would have to change their entire modus opperendi in order to be here and what they do is all they know. The media has a horrible detrimental effect in the USA and it always has. Even George Washington was slandered and libeled by his opponents. John Adams actually got the unconstitutional "Aliens and sedition act" passed because of this horrible character asasination that was the public discourse of the day. William Randolph Hearst took full credit for forcing the American government into the Spanish American war with his poison pen. You would think that after over 200 years the American public would get wise to the lying propaganda that comes at them from the media bit alas, that does not seem to be the case.

3, My last comment has again to do with money. There are very few Canadian politicians that go into politics for the money. For most it's a step down from their former positions in the financial sence. Because Canadians demand highly qualified people for government, the candidates are most often at the top of their field when they decide to enter public life. Wether it's business, education, civil service or whatever they are top notch. Look at the example of Perry in Texas. Other than being in the military he really has not not done anything in life outside of politics. Not that there is anything wrong with that but he has also made a lot of money on the side mostly in RE investments during that time. You could not do that in Canada. During the time you are in office your business life is over. All of your assets are put into a blind trust and you, the politician are not allowed to make any decisions regarding your business affairs during the time you are in public office. That restriction also applies to civil servants. My uncle, who is a wealthy man accepted an appointment as trade commissoner to the UK. During the 6 years he held that position the blind trust that was responsible for all his business made some bad choices and lost several hundred thousands of dollars. That's just the way it is and it keeps self serving people out of positions where they are supposed to be serving the public and not themselves.

We have a thing called freedom of speech. It allows news agencies to tell outright lies, if they so choose. We believe that are people are smart enough to see through the lies.

No censorship, no thanks
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Orlando
8,221 posts, read 10,955,532 times
Reputation: 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
Might as well add to the amendment that no representative should be able to leave congress and then go to work for a company as a lobbyist sounds too much like bribery to me.

I agree totally.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:43 PM
 
12,439 posts, read 9,959,483 times
Reputation: 3129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
We have a thing called freedom of speech. It allows news agencies to tell outright lies, if they so choose. We believe that are people are smart enough to see through the lies.
That belief is misplaced.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 20,323,976 times
Reputation: 8606
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
That belief is misplaced.

Then you don't trust your countrymen. The country is founded on the principle that the government derives its power from the will of the governed, and that it is their consent and will that gives the government its power.

But you seem to want to live in an oligarchy in which the few get to decide to make the decisions for the masses. I don't like that country, it isn't the one written in the Constitution.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:50 PM
 
Location: St. Joseph Area
6,237 posts, read 8,251,906 times
Reputation: 3093
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I know you Americans are going to get mad but I just have to say something about this.

The political process in Canada is literally light years ahead of the USA. There are a few reasons for this but I will concentrate on what I feel are the top three.

1, No corporations, unions or special interst groups are allowed to give one single penny to any political party or candidate. Individual Canadians are allowed to and the maximum amount you are allowed is $1100 per year total. This completely takes away the power of these special interests to corrupt the process. Lobbies in the USA can demand that their political hacks vote the way they order them to or they will be cut off the gravy train. In Canada a lobby has to use a different tack altogether. "Mr. Politician, what I am proposing will be good for your district, it will produce these benefits for your electorate and then it should be good for you when it comes election time". Another effect is in the quality of candidates. In the USA there are so many empty shirts put up for election and because they have such a huge amount of money behind them they often get elected even though they don't have one single clue about anything. A politician here in Canada has to get his money from the people and if he is not top notch and on the ball he will get squat and in fact he never would be nominated in the first place. Our politicians mostly go into politics because they care about the country and thery have ideas they feel can make a difference. They are not there because they think they will get rich post politics working for those same special interests like American politicians do. It is in fact illegal for a politician to work for anyone they have delt with while in office for 5 years after leaving government service. Another huge advantage of separating the pols from the money is. Have you ever noticed that election campains go on 24\7 365 days of the year forever in the USA? I think this is just so damaging to the entire process. Instead of doing their job the politicians are on a constant hunt for supporters, money and influence. It creates hyper partisanship which is in the process of sinking the American ship of state as fast as can be imagined. It is also fragmenting the country to a horrible degree, people just don't dislike the other guys, they hate them with a venom that is spewed, again 24\7 365 days of the year over all the airwaves of the country. In Canada our elections start, run and finish in about 5 weeks from end to end and that is painful enough for most Canadians. 5 weeks is all they could run because that is all the money they have.

2, The media, The media in Canada is prevented, by law from reporting falsehoods over the airwaves. If they do they are caught, charged, fined and if they persist they will lose their permit to broadcast. Why do you think we have no FOX or MSNBC stations in this country? They would have to change their entire modus opperendi in order to be here and what they do is all they know. The media has a horrible detrimental effect in the USA and it always has. Even George Washington was slandered and libeled by his opponents. John Adams actually got the unconstitutional "Aliens and sedition act" passed because of this horrible character asasination that was the public discourse of the day. William Randolph Hearst took full credit for forcing the American government into the Spanish American war with his poison pen. You would think that after over 200 years the American public would get wise to the lying propaganda that comes at them from the media bit alas, that does not seem to be the case.

3, My last comment has again to do with money. There are very few Canadian politicians that go into politics for the money. For most it's a step down from their former positions in the financial sence. Because Canadians demand highly qualified people for government, the candidates are most often at the top of their field when they decide to enter public life. Wether it's business, education, civil service or whatever they are top notch. Look at the example of Perry in Texas. Other than being in the military he really has not not done anything in life outside of politics. Not that there is anything wrong with that but he has also made a lot of money on the side mostly in RE investments during that time. You could not do that in Canada. During the time you are in office your business life is over. All of your assets are put into a blind trust and you, the politician are not allowed to make any decisions regarding your business affairs during the time you are in public office. That restriction also applies to civil servants. My uncle, who is a wealthy man accepted an appointment as trade commissoner to the UK. During the 6 years he held that position the blind trust that was responsible for all his business made some bad choices and lost several hundred thousands of dollars. That's just the way it is and it keeps self serving people out of positions where they are supposed to be serving the public and not themselves.
No, not mad. In my government class, I often compare the American and Canadian political systems, and even use broadcasts from the CBC (Because it's hard to find decent unbiased news here) and my students are increasingly wondering why we don't do some things like they do North of the border.
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