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Old 11-28-2011, 05:54 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 2,044,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
And the government wasn't specifically given the right to ban any types of guns....

Just sayin.....
Well, until the 2nd amendment was incorporated, state and local governments could.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:56 PM
 
Location: San Diego
50,283 posts, read 47,032,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Freedom of speech has its limitations, so does the right to bear arms.
Take CA for an example. Since when does the Govt have the "right" to remove or limit to a felony unloaded guns from law abiding Citizens? Well, it's about to happen in a month.

We are not talking assault weapons or grenades. We are talking a law abiding Citizen with an empty gun they had to already register and take tests just to buy. Including background checks.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:16 PM
 
1,535 posts, read 1,633,806 times
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Orginally all male members of the US between the ages of 18 to 45 years old were to have any weapon they could afford so they could be part of a milita if needed.


Southern Illinois University Law Journal


First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," explained the purpose of the Second Amendment as providing that "the people are confirmed . . . in their right to keep and bear their private [Page 159] arms."[58] Coxe sent a copy of this article to James Madison, who commended Coxe for his explanation of the meaning of the Bill of Rights.[59] The United States Code reflects the Founders' view of the Militia by establishing that every male citizen between the ages of 18 and 45 is a member of the Militia.[60] As the Court explained in Miller.
The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia-civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion. . . . [T]hese men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time. . . . [T]he militia system was based on the principle of the assize of arms. This implied the general obligation of all adult male inhabitants to possess arms.[61]
Thus, the Second Amendment, at a minimum, protects the right of Militia members (e.g. "all adult male inhabitants") to possess personal weapons which have military utility and thus are suitable for use if and when the Militia is mobilized. This is why the Court held in Miller that a law outlawing short-barreled shotguns is not prima facie unconstitutional. It is not within the scope of judicial notice that such weapons possess military utility and thus are Militia weapons whose possession is protected by the Second Amendment.[62]
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 17,358,834 times
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It's tough to compare crime rates among different cities and states, because a debate opponent who is not predisposed to agree with you can come up with an alternate explanation for numbers. Let's take a comparison between Seattle, WA and San Francisco and/or Fresno, CA, cities of similar size. Seattle being in Washington state has relatively liberal gun laws. There's no 'assault weapon' ban, the 'gun-show loophole' remains open, and a citizen with no felonies (or DV convictions) can get a permit to carry by filling out less then 5 minutes of paperwork.

United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
..........population........ 2010 murders per 100,000
Seattle 606,000............ 3.1
San Fran 818,794.......... 5.9
Fresno 484,734 .............9.3

So San Fran's murder rate is almost double Seattle's rate, and Fresno's rate is exactly triple that of Seattle. California has closed the so-called 'gun-show loophole,' has a state so-called 'assault weapons' ban, and rules on carry permits vary by jurisdiction. Neither Fresno or SF generally gives out permits (although that just changed in Fresno).

But as convincing as these numbers might seem, a debater could point out that a)SF has a lower rate than Fresno, despite operating under similar laws, b) CA shares a border with Mexico, so it's main staging turf for drug traffickers. Etc.

I think if I were writing your paper my approach would be to strip away the mythos surrounding guns and look at it as a tool. Is the gun really the best tool with which to repel criminal violence? To answer that question, read as much as you can about personal security and see what the experts have to say. If it turns out that they say yes, the gun is a necessary tool, then it seems to me you've made your case. If they say no, you've also made your case--just not in the direction you expected.

Last edited by wutitiz; 11-28-2011 at 10:11 PM..
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:45 PM
 
300 posts, read 250,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Freedom of speech has its limitations, so does the right to bear arms.
What does the phrase "shall not be infringed" mean to you?
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:48 PM
 
300 posts, read 250,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
However, you weren't specifically given the right to bear a fully automatic mini gun.
The 2nd Amendment does not say " the right of the people to keep and bear only the arms allowed by government".

On a second note, where does the government get the right to own fully auto mini guns?

Hint: All governmental powers are derived from the people, and the people cannot delegate a power they themselves do not already have.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:54 PM
 
25,021 posts, read 27,930,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwrek View Post
The 2nd Amendment does not say " the right of the people to keep and bear only the arms allowed by government".

On a second note, where does the government get the right to own fully auto mini guns?

Hint: All governmental powers are derived from the people, and the people cannot delegate a power they themselves do not already have.
If we went with the haplophobes' interpretation of the 2nd amendment, we'd only be allowed to own flintlock pistols and muskets. I mean, hey, that's what people used when the 2nd amendment was written. They didn't mean for people to own semi-auto pistols and automatic firearms right?!?!?!
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Old 11-29-2011, 04:15 AM
 
5,758 posts, read 11,635,426 times
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For a research paper, you'd need to strictly define your area under consideration. For instance, a paper on trends in the US is going to look different than a paper which (for example) also included Canada or other developed nations.

But anyhow, it's extremely difficult to draw any direct correlation between state-level murder rates, and the prevailing state-level firearms laws, as this map of state-by-state murder rates for 2010 shows:



Basically, you're going to find that there are factors more powerful than gun laws when it comes to how murderous a state ends up being.

To put it another way, if you were to list the 10 states in the US with the highest and lowest murder rates, and compare them to the 10 states with the freest and most onerous gun laws, you won't find much of a sensible pattern to correlate them.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: MS
4,395 posts, read 4,911,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Gun bans should be on the local level.
Speech bans should be on the local level. Or are not all of the Amendments weighted the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
However, you weren't specifically given the right to bear a fully automatic mini gun.
Really? All it takes is a thorough background check and about $250,000.

Minigun Demonstration - YouTube
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:09 AM
 
Location: NJ
23,550 posts, read 17,223,445 times
Reputation: 17590
Consider that firearm legislation is like selling magazine subscriptions.
Not everyone purchases one. The criminals simply do not abide by restrictive legislation and so it has zero impact on their illegal activities.

Legislation is meant to control the activities of the people who abide by law and attempts to mitigate undesired behavior by threatening criminals with codified penalties. Apparently criminals do not feel threatened by laws and associated punishment. This makes many laws toothless and in the category of 'feel good' laws to enhance someone's political reputation.

Firearm legislation often manufactures default criminals out of law abiding citizens.

Newark NJ for instrtance has had at least one murder a month since the late 60s. That really averages out to much more than 1/month. Theoretically one month went murder free. NJ has very restrictive gun laws and mandatory 3 yr sentence for crimes that involve firearm use.

Tons of money spent on social programs and law enforcement have done nothing but stabilized a killing ground. citizen outrage has turned into tolerance and justification.

Violent gangs and drugs are rampant and open for everyone to see. no amount of firearm legislation that restricts law abiding citizens will ever touch Newark's problems. Even if all firearms were banned in city limits I'd venture that the murder rate would remain steady and perhasp rise as more potential victims would be created by the legislation.

Plea bargains defeat many of our laws apparently even the laws that mandate incarceration as in the case of a famous basketball player who shotgunned his chauffer.

When firearms were more accessable in the 60s and 70s with about 12 ads in the boy scout manual encouraging the purchase of firearms and the DCM director of civilian marksmanship selling guns through the NRA, the violence was almost non existent compared to today. At 18 you could go to Kliens, a national chain of dept stores and buy an Italian carcano just like the gun used to assinate JFK.

firearm legislation is the defacto response of a frustrated society who refuses to address social issues due to political correctness, ACLU lawsuits and a distorted perspective of social justice spewed by government granted social scientists seeking to feed off government directed handouts. Some of these PhD wannabes attack traditional childrens' stories as a basis to esatblish their obscure careers.
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