The middle class is suffering and the Republicans want to cut taxes for the wealthy (death, rating)

[buzzards27]

Originally Posted by waterboy7375

All the bush tax cuts? is that what you beleive?

Yes, they were no bargain for the middle class. We would have done better and have a smaller national debt if the uber wealthy had paid the pre bush tax rates. Might have prevent bush great recession.

[supertrucker212]

of course I don't agree, but I'm not surprised

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Who says that American workers are lazy? They are highly productive and haven't been compensated for that productivity

The data is false, because it includes production by automation. American workers are not becoming more productive, machines are.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Regarding illegal aliens, nobody here seemed to mind when our grandparents from Europe were those illegal aliens.

My great-grandparents and grandparents were many things, but the were not illegal aliens. They followed the law, and quite proudly so that they could attain citizenship the legal way.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

When are people like you going to understand that you can't squeeze blood from a stone? Those making $22,000 and less don't have spare money to pay income taxes.

Yes they do.

You are not entitled to a new car, internet, cable/satellite, your own private residence, Coogi, Tommy-gear, iPods, Blackberries, Droids or anything else.

Those are luxuries. I made $24,000/year and had a fantastic life, but then I live in an area with a low cost-of-living so $24,000 went very, very far, which is something you cannot seem to wrap your brain around.

I also made good choices. I didn't throw money away on a $199/month or $289/month car payment plus the extra cost of new car insurance. So I had lots of extra money. I don't need a shiny new car to get women to hang all over me.

And those years where all I got was $10,600 stipend, I shared an apartment with another grad student (or two) to save money, instead of lying in the street wailing how unjust society is because the government won't buy me a $250,000 McMansion.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Do you really want to force the elderly, living on Social Security and possibly a meager pension, who have to skimp on every penny, to pay more taxes while you leave the ultra-rich with the lowest tax-rates in generations?

But the elderly on Social Security with a meager pension would not owe federal income taxes, nor would they pay FICA taxes.

When you have 65 years, you don't buy a $250,000 McMansion with 0% and then cry because Social Security will not cover your mortgage payments.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Of course, the morally bankrupt conservatives are the modern day Sheriff of Nottinghams -- wanting to raise taxes on the poor and struggling class and leave the rich private jet owner class with low taxes. It's clear that the GOP does believe in tax-hikes, just not on the rich.

So what was the excuse of Democrats who raised taxes on the poor?

Did you read the June 2011 Social Security actuarial report?

Even if you eliminate the cap on Social Security, you will have to raise the FICA tax from 6.02% to 16.4%.

That's over 10 points.

Can you say "recession?"

You can't tax 232,000 people to pay for 100+Million people.

This has nothing to do with taxes, and everything to do with the fact that you think people are entitled to a certain standard of living at the expense of everyone else.

Squeezing blood from a bag of plasma....

Mircea

Originally Posted by alphamale

A perfect argument against social security.

Imagine if hey had been allowed to save their own money?

You're not insinuating that they would not have had the discipline to do hat, are you?

I would take issue with that.

It is difficult to overcome decades of propaganda and disinformation, ironically spewed by Liberals, but what is Social Security?

Social Security is not a retirement plan.

Social Security is not an investment plan.

Social Security is not a savings Plan.

Let's look:

OASI

Old Age Survivor's Insurance

Social Security is an insurance plan.

So you're all comparing oranges and tampons.

Okay, so Social Security does not pay out what an investment plan or savings plan would pay out. No kidding. Why would it? Social Security is an insurance plan. It is an insurance plan designed to keep you from sleeping under a bridge or being a bag-lady in your old age, and that is all that it is intended to do.

It is your duty, obligation and responsibility to obtain a pension/retirement plan, and also to manage your own savings for retirement.

In the event that life's circumstances ultimately result in not having either a pension or savings plan, then at least you have insurance from Social Security. That is the purpose of Social Security.

And the reality is that no, people do not have the discipline. The simple fact that some 75+% of Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck proves that.

The bottom line is that in order for nearly everyone to have some kind of retirement money set aside, the government is going to have to mandate that through legislation.

Does the government need to put its filthy paws all over that money? No. A better way would be for the government to simply mandate that a certain percentage of money be deducted and placed in the financial institution of the employee's choice, and the government keeps its hands off.

Not imagining anything...

Mircea

Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948

the middle class is not just suffering they are dying.

Really? Let's look at the numbers again:

There are 110 Million households.

46 Million households receive Food Stamps.

Yet, 90+% of households, or 99 Million households have cable, satellite or both.

And, 80% of households have a computer and 92% of those have internet connection, or 88 Million households.

I can see why no one wants to address this. It totally destroys the argument that the Middle Class is suffering.

Still waiting for a response....

Mircea

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

With Republicans sabotaging every attempt for progress, what do you expect?

Let's see a couple of examples, the GOP holds the nation hostage to get the Bush tax-cuts extended, which in all rights should have expired.

The Congress passed a creation of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, with the GOP kicking and screaming -- but the GOP was successful at pulling some teeth out of the bureau, then they refuse to approve anyone, regardless of qualifications, to head the bureau.

The GOP holds up the jobs bill that would help get Americans back to work.

The Dems had the majority at that time..Senate, House and Oval Office.
And who signed it ?

[waterboy7375]

Originally Posted by buzzards27

Yes, they were no bargain for the middle class. We would have done better and have a smaller national debt if the uber wealthy had paid the pre bush tax rates. Might have prevent bush great recession.

So as you scream we need to raise the taxes on wealthy , do you also write your reps asking them to raise yours too? Dont forget to ask em to lower your adult kids ( if you have any) child deduction they get for your grandchildren.

[TrapperJohn]

Mircea,

No amount of data, fact, or logic is going to convince somebody who society has socialized into believing they are owed a fabulous life that they aren't.

The rich are evil. If its not the rich it's the evil white male, the evil Republicans, the evil corporation, the Illuminati or the Masons.

The only person who is not at fault is the guy who made bad decisions, poor choices, or who squandered every opportunity provided.

Plenty of guys like me started with nothing more than work ethic and determination. We sacrificed for years to get to a point where we could retire. While you were in grad school, plenty were chasing skirts and drinking booze. When I was in my twenties I saved 10% of every gross dollar I earned.

I won't pretend that the deck is stacked 100% fair. It never will be. But in the aggregate, anyone can succeed in this country if he is motivated and determined and willing to put forth the effort. It won't happen overnight. It is not as fun as spending every dime in North Beach and Vegas on $12 cocktails. It's not as cool as a new luxury car at age 28, or tickets to the 49's. It is attainable. Even the average earner can accumulate a substantial portfolio by age 60 if he starts early and is disciplined. Thats how wealth is built.

One of my lifelong Navy buddies came from Podunk, Ohio. When he and I left, he was considering returning to work at some factory but decided to try school, since California in the 70's was just slightly cooler than Ohio. He ended up with an engineering degree and then went on to get his Masters. He has done far better than his siblings. Same parents, same environment, same genetic background. We have talked about it, and he firmly believes that if he had not joined the Navy he would be another 55 year old guy in Ohio complaining about the rich guys just like his brother. A little discipline goes a long way.

The kids today want it all now.

[MTAtech]

Ok Mircea believe what you want. I've provided indisputable evidence that opportunity in the U.S. has shrunk because of the defunding of America and evidence that in America, more than in most other wealthy nations, the size of your paycheck is strongly correlated with the size of your father’s paycheck -- in other words, rising from one class to a higher one is harder. However, you choose to believe class stratification is because people choose to have cable TV.

And TrapperJohn, nobody is suggesting the "rich are evil." That's a straw man argument. What we are saying is that the rich pay to little in taxes to support funding of America and the notion that "anyone can succeed in this country if he is motivated and determined and willing to put forth the effort," is a fairy tail not supported by the evidence.

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by buzzards27

Yes, they were no bargain for the middle class. We would have done better and have a smaller national debt if the uber wealthy had paid the pre bush tax rates. Might have prevent bush great recession.

I believe 9-11 is what sent the country into a recession and those cuts were to give people more money to spend.

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Ok Mircea believe what you want. I've provided indisputable evidence that opportunity in the U.S. has shrunk because of the defunding of America and evidence that in America, more than in most other wealthy nations, the size of your paycheck is strongly correlated with the size of your father’s paycheck -- in other words, rising from one class to a higher one is harder. However, you choose to believe class stratification is because people choose to have cable TV.

And TrapperJohn, nobody is suggesting the "rich are evil." That's a straw man argument. What we are saying is that the rich pay to little in taxes to support funding of America and the notion that "anyone can succeed in this country if he is motivated and determined and willing to put forth the effort," is a fairy tail not supported by the evidence.

Then you cut back on your spending. Do you realize the boomers, biggest generation yet is now starting to retire. And who are taking over the boomers' jobs..why college graduates in India, China, Brazil, Vietnam, etc.

And in spite of this you say "tax the rich more" ?
Lower your standards..you are not guaranteed a "rich" life.

[pghquest]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Don't put words in other people's mouths.

One can quote anecdotal examples. However, the main reason the nation should tax the wealthy greater is that when we did, we had a better nation and we ran budget surpluses.

Wrong as always.