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When it functions at all, the right-wing simply functions on a different plane from the rest of us.
MMM, who is 'us', kemosabe? There are innumerable factions in US politcs, each functioning on its own plane, therein a loss of discourse. Daily Kos and DU are as unto themselves as any militant right wing faction of the Republican Party and as recently observed, Daily Kos is taking precedence over the Democratic Leadership Council. Any middle-of-the-road to right commenter is immediately banned by Kos and/or DU.
I'm neither supportive nor opposed to current administration practices. I don't think any other leader would have had a better idea how to pursue terrorist intents against the US, which threats I firmly believe are real. Should someone have a better idea then maybe that person should start some dialogue rather than shrieking criticism.
I was neither supportive nor opposed to the previous administration. I did however, make it a point to change TV channel anytime he was the point of media coverage. It was his job, I let him pursue it. He's gone, we've moved on.
I believe the best place to start making a change in the way this country works is local, with my representative. I believe every citizen has that obligation. I also think that this 'problem' with DC began in the mid-sixties, with civil rights. Of course, that's when I first had an interest in political observation. It's been us against them ever since and that's what needs to stop. If these guys can't work together, they need to go home.
My current campaign slogan is Congress... 535 reasons to support term limits with no benefits and no grandfathering tenure. It's a place to start correcting the failings of our elected representation.
I am afraid that phrase was taken out of context. I was referring to the time period of the 2003 Iraq invasion. Now it might be safe to say that the "emotionally charged" people are with the democrats. I am also afraid that I have put a negative connotation on emotions and I do not believe that to be the case either. Citi, you are right though. That is the best thing we can do. Although I think that we can take it a step further and try to get organized with it. I am sure there are some people who would be interested in sitting down over pizza and a drink and discussing some of the issues as well as possible solutions to those issues. There's nothing wrong with it. If I got wind of one of the people I know having a political discussion night I wouldn't mind going at all... it's just something that Americans need to start caring about again.
Very well said willys. That is true. The us against them attitude is a very big hinderance towards collective activity on capitol hill. All personal beliefs aside I completely agree with what you said about how it is our obligation as citizens of this country. However I feel that constituent weighs heavier in the mind of a congress person or senator than voter's concerns. I feel that if one is to truly get congress or any part of government back to its true form there must be a separation of private parties and legislature. That said I do think they take into consideration what the voters want, but I think a desire to stay in office and continuously get reelected also affects their judgment.
However a congress person decides which policies to vote for or what positions to take is not the subject of this forum, although it is a very critical issue. But in all honesty you have some great ideas willys and I encourage you to go out and talking with people and discussing with them.
The reason I am writing this thread is to inform people, and for people to inform me. The title is fitting because it states exactly what America is missing today, Public discourse. Yes this country is divided by party politics and arguments arise through passionate discussion, but it is that discussion that America needs most right now. Informed, logical, and reasonable debate is important for Americans. If you turn on CSPAN and watch for ten minutes you will see none of what I have mentioned. America has come to the point where it has lost what once made it great. It has lost its true democratic process.
I thought that this forum would be a good way to start getting people involved in discussing not just politics, but change. The change needed for America to regain the principles that it has lost since the establishment of the constitution. I also wrote this forum to encourage the readers to engage in discussion, not only on the internet, but in their homes, church's, and community centers. Now more than ever we need an educated populace to influence the course of our nation.
"...government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
- President Abraham Lincoln
Well sir, you are talking about changing the fabric of our society back to what it was originally from what it is today. This idea, while noble, has to face the fact that such a task is greater than most realize. You are not merely asking people to change their perspective on an issue or asking them to consider the broader objective, you are asking them to unlearn a multi-generational manner of thinking.
From the cradle to the grave, Americans are fed an endless supply of jingoistic blather that permeates every aspect of our lives, from education, entertainment, politics, religion, to how we see our very neighbors. We have simplified every question and view down to just this or that as though the world was binary. You are politically left or right, you either believe in evolution or you don’t, you are for the Cowboys on Sunday or the Buccaneers, you are either with us or against us. While it may be true that the essence too many answers may be just true or false, how we arrive at those conclusions often require a much deeper level of thought.
The danger of this of simplistic and uncritical manner of thinking becomes evident when we are forced to face an issue, an idea, or concept that requires in depth consideration and debate and our answers remain two-dimensional. “They hate us for our freedoms” being just one single example of a vast number of examples of over simplification. Yet people continue to buy this bill of goods because again, from the cradle to the grave we are told that the government has its people’s best interest at heart, our nation is infallible, and we as a people have a superior quality that other people do not. We never seem to ask ourselves WHY we think the way we do, we merely accept it on faith that we are right. Egocentrism on a scale not seen since the Roman Empire.
Social engineering is not always an easy thing to detect and many people are totally oblivious to existence, let alone its influence. An example of media social engineering can be shown in something as benign as sitcoms. During the 60-70’s there was a great deal of racial tension in the US, and there was a generation of people still out there who called an African Americans, “ni**ers”, openly in public; so how to quell bigotry and change public perceptions? You create a TV sitcom called Archie Bunker in which the main character is a chauvinist and a bigot, with his counter being the educated liberal man and his feminist wife (residing in his home) and you make a mockery of him. The effects of this are quite clear; bigots are a funny silly people not to be taken serious. Subtle but very effective as it may not have changed the minds of some people but in the end, it did have the desired effect. This type of programming/mental marketing is repeated daily with greater and greater sophistication. People accept what they see on TV as just entertainment, yet while doing so, their views are shaped, and most without ever knowing that it is happening. Like it or not TV is a tool that both makes money and guides social views as well as public opinion, all while claiming it merely to be entertainment.
In the realm of our news media today, I won’t even bother giving examples of the extreme bias, and attempts to guide the public view, as there is no sense is stating the obvious. I don’t even have a problem with news media issuing one perspective or another, but then again, I see most news media today more as entertainment than simply just news.
Politics are at least a little more subtle than news media but if looked at critically, they are just as obvious. Americans spend more time weighing the pros and cons of various cars they are about to purchase than they do when choosing a doctor. By the same token, spend more time denouncing an opposing candidate then they do looking into the pros and cons of their own candidate of choice. What is ironic is that often the candidate they denounce is not very different from the one they have chosen. One might also note that in politics like many things, we are only offered two choices to pick from that are deemed viable, either the Democrat or Republican version, even if they take many of the same positions. While we deem many of the lesser nations as “less sophisticated” yet they have many more choices that are deemed viable by their people.
Now I expect somewhat of a violent reaction to this bit by various posters, but we also have to take into consideration that most people posting in this forum are not what I would consider the mass majority. Most of those who post here are at least interested in politics, social issues, and current events, but the bulk of America will cringe like a dog with a broken leg at the first mention of politics during a discussion. (most people are taught this from an early age) Whether or not I agree with them or they with me, the level of discussion taking place here is far above the national average of dialog. Most people are still living in a waking dream, that place that is halfway between consciousness and blissful rem sleep because otherwise they see the world as hopeless to change.
So Trup8riot, if you want to invoke critical thinking, open dialog, and genuine public discourse, I suggest you first wake the rest of the masses who are plugged into the tube, being fed cake and circuses, and see the world as a binary thing. In essence you will either have to change or tear down the current mechanisms of social engineering and start from scratch. Be prepared to accept that those who prefer that we keep the current structure will oppose you with great effort and will often have the masses behind them, so long as their bellies are full and the TV is on.
As to government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
- President Abraham Lincoln
Our destiny as a nation and a people is not carved in marble but is written in the sand of a beach on a stormy day and will require due vigilance to make sure that it does not perish.
I will be honest. It is very good to hear some of those things you said. At times it is often difficult being surrounded by what you have mentioned. The news media, subtle influences in our daily life, advertising, the indifference towards politics. This change that is necessary is, as you said, no easy thing. I like that phrase "social engineering". Those words are probably the most accurate when describing what has happened to our nation. It is, for lack of a better word, appalling to look out and see the vast majority of Americans indifferent to those topics that matter most, and immersed in ideas that matter very little. I have often wondered if such a change was possible, if we as a country could again shift our focus and entire social fabric back to what made us great to begin with. It is difficult to say whether or not such a change is possible, but I believe that the question is not whether it is possible, but whether it is needed or not. The sad fact is that it is.
You mention a lot of good examples of how our current society is well entrenched in the ideas of materialism and superficiality as well as simplistic responses. I have to say that I completely agree with what you say. However, we both acknowledge this problem, but the question is not whether or not it is a problem, but "what is the solution to that problem?" Is there a feasible solution to the problem? Must we sit and constantly be bombarded by the influences of television and media? Or can we, you, myself and others who use logic, reason, and, above all, discussion, as tools to shape our country's future.
My question to you is do you believe it is possible? and if so How would you suggest bringing about this change?
I say it is completely possible and even doable but it would have to be a long term goal as people can't, "unlearn" a pattern of thinking over night.
You first must have a goals or a level in which you want to achieve. You then must put into place the tools, materials, and means to achieve those goals. Things such as a higher standard of education in both the schools and in the home. You will need a media that is critical and unafraid and will challenge not only the social norms but our own views as well. We need to demand and enforce accountability in our political arena, our media, and ourselves. It would also help if we were more visionary in our thinking instead of reactionary, think of how our actions will effect our children instead of reacting to how something will effect just ourselves.
Such a task is daunting in both size and necessity. The only place I would know where to start is here. I guess that is part of the reason I started this thread. I believed it necessary to educate people. Apparently I have started in the wrong area because it is I who received the education. reaching the masses is difficult in times when they don't want to, or can't be reached. Coming up with a solution to this problem is something I have thought of for a long time and every time I come up with the same solution. That in a country that is wrought with so much covert corruption, and entrenched opposition is to inform the masses. The way I see it is that if this country does not change in 5 years, it will suffer from it in the next 15.
The means which you said are necessary for change are also very difficult to acquire during times like these. We live in a self centered society where everyone is out for themselves and challenging any idea that supports those ideals is a very risky proposition. So since i am being educated I have another question for you. How would you as the person you are now start such a change.
I guess I would start with saying that we should examine what we believe to be true may hold the possibility that we are wrong. Let truth and falsehood grapple.
Interesting thread here. I am curious as to the differences in truth and falsehood and who decides what is truth and what is indeed falsehood. The truth, as I see it, may be 100% different than anyone elses. Does that make me wrong? I agree that open discussion, public discource if you will, is a necessity for society. A necessity that should be conducted in a respectful manner without one side acting like the other stole their favorite toy.
I have resisted admitting that the media is biased, but I'm slowly beginning to conceed that fact. However, I have a hard time admitting that we are dancing along like blissful marionettes without a single thought in our heads.
But, then again, from an educator's standpoint and having suffered through the "No Child Left Behind" joke, I can see how we are stamping out any free thinking notion in our future citizens. So, I personally think that any attempt to open lines of communication and discuss real issues outside of the what is the most popular box is a step in the right direction.
Saganista, you bring up a very good point. It is obvious that we currently have forces at work whose main enemy is fact reason and debate. It is diificult for our legislature to function when such forces are not only firmly entrenched but very efficient at keeping these vital aspects out of our government process.
Let's all say it together: G-R-E-E-D
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