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1.) Uh, who will pay for this???!? Currently we have about 30+ million kids between the ages of 18-24
Except we aren't talking kids 18-24 but kids right out of HS, so the number is much smaller. Still a large number.......but.....pay? Who said anything about getting paid? Do you get paid to go to school? Think of this as a brief extension of your schooling.
OK I'm only semi-serious. A very good overall question. I have no pat answer offhand, but one way could be to give credits towards college (the Air Force already does this to an extent), saving them money...ie in effect, "paying" them. If in a non-academic area, eg civil engineering, perhaps some kind of certification which would help w/employment when you're done.
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Where will all of these soldiers stay! On bases?
They could still live at home, so extra bases/etc not needed.
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What about food? That's billions of dollars for food.
Well they aren't just going to be sitting around playing video games, so I think that could be offset by the work they do.
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And weapons, too.
No need for weapons, as I do not suggest they are put in jobs or situations where they could deploy to dangerous areas.
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DO we really want to spend 700 billion dollars a year of taxpayer money
I have no idea where 700B suddenly popped into the picture. ?
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2.) All of you pie-in-the-sky idealists who support this aren't thinking of today's kids. There are millions of young men and women who are simply unfit for military service- either physically, mentally, or emotionally. It takes a brave, strong, thick-skinned person to join the army.
BINGO THANK YOU....as you just made one of the very BEST arguments as to why this is such a great idea! Now more than ever I think we have a nation of many coddled, spoiled kids who DESPERATELY need the discipline and sense of accountability the military would give them, as many alleged parents out there are either unable or worse unwilling to do so.
But that all said, I would not suggest for a second that they be put in any dangerous situations, so frankly a lot of bravery, etc not required.
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How would you like your son who fits this bill and joined because he wanted to, serving next to Bobby McFatty, who is 200 pounds overweight, played videogames all throughout high school, misses his family (and videogames), hasn't really experienced the world outside of his bedroom, and was planning on maybe getting a degree in IT tech one day. He REALLLY doesn't want to be there. I mean, he REALLY doesn't.
Fine, because McFatty is going to learn the hard way and realize that he wishes his bonehead parents had actually disciplined him and not pampered him to death, let him play videos all day, etc etc etc. But while harder in the short term, years later he'll look back and be VERY glad for the experience.
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What about the rich gay boy who wears designer clothes and speaks with a lisp? He's underweight and shrimpy.
Fat boy and gay boy cry themselves to sleep at night and maybe even get able-bodied people murdered.
sigh - another kid who's "knowledge" of the military appears to come mostly from movies. You have much to learn young Jedi.
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3.) This is a total infringement on our rights. I am not cut out for military service. I'm a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books and has his plans set on being a teacher one day. I respect each and every person who serves in our army. My cousin, my friend, and my ex's friend are all in the military. I could never, ever do what they do and do so well. They want to be there. I don't. I'm a chicken. They aren't. They're the very finest of our nation and they don't deserve to have a person like me weighing them down.
And again. The military is rarely like the movies FYI. You don't have to be Rambo. I've known some seriously "skinny nerdy" people who served.
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4.) Would you like to have a random teenager doing a skilled job such as a doctor, or firefighter, or plumber, or lawyer, without experience, training, and the desire & drive to do so?
Of course not, as you said. And who said anything about putting teenage kids in such positions (although requirements and feasibilities vary from job to job).
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the results would be disastrous. The equipment and 2+ years of training required to go through for all military trainees
What are you talking about? There is NO job in the military that requires 2 years of training (discounting college obviously).
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The weaponry of today is so sophisticated that you would never be able to show somebody who is unwilling how to use it properly.
Oh BS. I'm quite far from a "weapons expert" and learned how to tear apart and put an M-16 back together in a single afternoon. And again this is irrelevant as I would not have most if not all dealing w/this anyway.
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Plus, all military privates are required to take a battery test that will determine their positions & what weapons they have the aptitude for. Anyone who doesn't want to be there could just fail those tests and nobody will be the wiser.
1 - You realize the Army isn't the whole military, right?
2 - Again refer to earlier comments above about weaponry
Yeledef outstanding post, more or less along the lines of what I had in mind There are all kinds of ways this could be done.
To my way of thinking, it would give our young people a way to be challenged to do more than just amuse themselves. And I'd be willing to bet that they would shock us all with their positive energy and achievements.
The alternative is to continue down the road to maintaining a permanent underclass to do our working and fighting. They tried that in Rome....
To my way of thinking, it would give our young people a way to be challenged to do more than just amuse themselves. And I'd be willing to bet that they would shock us all with their positive energy and achievements.
Of course they would. Kids are one HELL of a lot smarter - and tougher - than many of the spineless mental midgets out there (including a tragic # of parents) give them credit for.
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The alternative is to continue down the road to maintaining a permanent underclass to do our working and fighting. They tried that in Rome....
Lost me there. People in the military come from all walks of life.
To my way of thinking, it would give our young people a way to be challenged to do more than just amuse themselves. And I'd be willing to bet that they would shock us all with their positive energy and achievements.
The alternative is to continue down the road to maintaining a permanent underclass to do our working and fighting. They tried that in Rome....
I well remember the days of UMT after the Korean conflict. Every able bodied male had to serve 2 years of active duty in the military and it was pure hell working with those who were drafted and just didn't want to be there. They all counted the days till discharge beginning at about 15 months to go. They weren't able to do their jobs nearly as well as if they had wanted to be there. It really made me unhappy to have to work with people who didn't care at all about their jobs but just thought about getting out.
Of course, I enlisted because I didn't want to wait 6 months to be drafted and then became a real Regular Army soldier and was much happier than if I was considered to be like I saw those US folks, the draftees.
Do you know that UMT means Universal Military Training? I don't know what was intended when the law was passed but I think it worked about as well as the same thing would today. It just won't work and the career people just don't want draftees hanging around counting the days like back then.
In other words you wouldn't lift a finger for the United States.
Pardon Me, I've been listening to this same self righteous bull since before Vietnam.
What do you mean by US? Are you refering to its civilian population or are you referring to the politicians? It's a well documented fact that the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was staged by the US, so why would I want to fight a man on his own soil for something that was made up?!
I'll defend my bit of land if the time comes. However blind patriotism for some ambiguous value isn't going to convince me that murdering someone I don't know is the right thing. When have conformity, group think, and deindividuation ever been positive virtues? You want leadership? How do you expect to get that when you force them to follow orders and strip them of the personality before they are adults?
You really should get over your cognitive dissonance and realize that your values are one big illusion. You've been had.
1.) Uh, who will pay for this???!? Currently we have about 30+ million kids between the ages of 18-24 in America as we speak. If you want to be sexist and only make guys do this, then okay, thats 15 million. Where will all of these soldiers stay! On bases? Who will build enough bases for millions of soldiers? I hear from friends who are in the army that living conditions are already fairly cramped. What about food? That's billions of dollars for food. And weapons, too. Oh, and showers, beds, uniforms, vehicles. And who's paying them?
DO we really want to spend 700 billion dollars a year of taxpayer money for such an asinine idea while we already spend wayyy too much on security, and pennies on education?
2.) All of you pie-in-the-sky idealists who support this aren't thinking of today's kids. There are millions of young men and women who are simply unfit for military service- either physically, mentally, or emotionally. It takes a brave, strong, thick-skinned person to join the army. How would you like your son who fits this bill and joined because he wanted to, serving next to Bobby McFatty, who is 200 pounds overweight, played videogames all throughout high school, misses his family (and videogames), hasn't really experienced the world outside of his bedroom, and was planning on maybe getting a degree in IT tech one day. He REALLLY doesn't want to be there. I mean, he REALLY doesn't. So, he's going to hide out in ditches while your son is on the front lines of the platoon, saving his sorry ass from enemy fire. How does this make you feel?
What about the rich gay boy who wears designer clothes and speaks with a lisp? He's underweight and shrimpy. How would this kid respond to being forced to be in the army for a few years? Would you like him next to your son in the line of fire? Oh, and yes, DADT would have to be ditched for this because then everyone would just say they're gay to get out of the mandatory service
"Well the military'll change that there attitude real quick fer yeh, sonny!" Haha, yeah right. Once somebody has their plans & lifestyle, personality, and attitudes set, you won't change that with a crash-course training session and weapon fitting. Fat boy and gay boy cry themselves to sleep at night and maybe even get able-bodied people murdered.
3.) This is a total infringement on our rights. I am not cut out for military service. I'm a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books and has his plans set on being a teacher one day. I respect each and every person who serves in our army. My cousin, my friend, and my ex's friend are all in the military. I could never, ever do what they do and do so well. They want to be there. I don't. a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books They aren't. They're the very finest of our nation and they don't deserve to have a person like me weighing them down.
4.) Would you like to have a random teenager doing a skilled job such as a doctor, or firefighter, or plumber, or lawyer, without experience, training, and the desire & drive to do so? Of course not- the results would be disastrous. The equipment and 2+ years of training required to go through for all military trainees are designed to be sure of the fact that the person WANTS to be there. It's TOUGH and grueling. This isn't Veitnam where you could just throw weapons at people, show them how to point & shoot, and send them out in the field. The weaponry of today is so sophisticated that you would never be able to show somebody who is unwilling how to use it properly. Plus, all military privates are required to take a battery test that will determine their positions & what weapons they have the aptitude for. Anyone who doesn't want to be there could just fail those tests and nobody will be the wiser.
5.) We already have the second-largest army in the world. A million. A MILLION. that is downright huge. Think about it: it's about as big as the city of Philadelphia. Nobody can stand up to our power, especially when combined with our numerous allies. There's no need for soldiers at all- simply not. When Vietnam occured, we had a small military and needed those new recruits. Now, we don't thanks to recuruiting campaigns and the way the army is rightfully revered by the populace as heroic and brave. And the recession has caused the military to exceed its recuritment drives by about 130%. Those 40,000 deployed to Afghanistan? Not a drop in the bucket. And this isn't counting the reserves either.
I could go on and on about what an awful, terrible, impossible idea this is but you get the picture.
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You didn't address your response to anyone particular. but since mine was the last one of substantive comment I'll respond.
By virtue of your comments in point #3, you have defined yourself as the poster-boy for irresponsibility. What I posted is NOT an "idea". It's a constitutional responsibility you bear as a male citizen of this country. That's point one. Point two is that the military wouldn't want someone like you IF you 1) couldn't pass initial screening upon induction OR 2) couldn't "make it" through boot camp successfully. For your other shortcomings, if you passed those first two hurdles, the military has a regimen that would work to 'modify' your outlook on things.
I'm afraid that merely defining onesself as "a nerdy, skinny dude who reads comic books " OR "I'm a chicken." would likely NEVER be an exemption to that citizenship responsibility. The bottom line for the "responsibility"is that almost ALL can 'serve' in SOME capacity. Of course disablilites would be an exception, but not an excuse!
Except we aren't talking kids 18-24 but kids right out of HS, so the number is much smaller. Still a large number.......but.....pay? Who said anything about getting paid? Do you get paid to go to school? Think of this as a brief extension of your schooling.
You sure as hell better be paying me for putting aside my plans of college, getting married, having kids, buying my first house, and otherwise what I planned on doing since childhood.
$25,000+ for each year, please. Not taxable, cold-hard cash.
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They could still live at home, so extra bases/etc not needed.
What if the kid doesn't get along well with their parents? Should they have to "deal with it" for two more years? What if I wanted to live away from home, why do other people get bases and not me?
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Well they aren't just going to be sitting around playing video games, so I think that could be offset by the work they do.
No need for weapons, as I do not suggest they are put in jobs or situations where they could deploy to dangerous areas.
Then, why this law? whats the need in peacetime? For a vague reason of "teaching kids discipline"? I don't need your discipline to be a person. I've got a 3.4 GPA and I feel I will excell in any field I choose to go into as long as I work hard at it.
Now; I could agree with having kids who aren't going to college do this I suppose. Deferments were great because, why should I get picked while the drop-out deadbeat druggie doesn't? That bothers me. A lot.
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I have no idea where 700B suddenly popped into the picture. ?
This will cost an astronomical amount. You're naive if you think this will be a cheap undertaking.
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BINGO THANK YOU....as you
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just made one of the very BEST arguments as to why this is such a great idea! Now more than ever I think we have a nation of many coddled, spoiled kids who DESPERATELY need the discipline and sense of accountability the military would give them, as many alleged parents out there are either unable or worse unwilling to do so.
Again, my parents didn't "coddle" me. They were tough as hell on me, when they were actually around the house that is. I am *still* unfit for military service. My personality clashes with the idea of strict tidiness and the "just another soldier" mentality that comes along with the military. I don't belong there, period, along with millions & millions of others.
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But that all said, I would not suggest for a second that they be put in any dangerous situations, so frankly a lot of bravery, etc not required.
So what, would you fill out a card saying "don't throw me into the desert with a pistol and tell me to kill twenty terrorists"?
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Fine, because McFatty is going to learn the hard way and realize that he wishes his bonehead parents had actually disciplined him and not pampered him to death, let him play videos all day, etc etc etc. But while harder in the short term, years later he'll look back and be VERY glad for the experience.
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sigh - another kid who's "knowledge" of the military appears to come mostly from movies. You have much to learn young Jedi.
I've seen several war movies & documentaries. Also real life footage. I've met soldiers before and as I've said have friends who are soldiers. Every single one has been in tip-top shape. Every one has muscles.
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And again. The military is rarely like the movies FYI. You don't have to be Rambo. I've known some seriously "skinny nerdy" people who served.
...who probably had one hell of a time keeping up with the 200-pound ex-quarterback. One of the major tenets of military life is the fact that everyone does what they are ordered to do. I seriously doubt hardened generals will have much scruples about ordering unfit people to do ridiculous tasks that they are certainly not cut out for in the slightest.
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Of course not, as you said. And who said anything about putting teenage kids in such positions (although requirements and feasibilities vary from job to job).
I consider the ages of 15-23 to be "teen/young adult" area with varying shades of gray.
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Oh BS. I'm quite far from a "weapons expert" and learned how to tear apart and put an M-16 back together in a single afternoon. And again this is irrelevant as I would not have most if not all dealing w/this anyway.
Not just an M-16. There are many other things to learn about being in the military besides for how to fire a gun right.
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1 - You realize the Army isn't the whole military, right?
2 - Again refer to earlier comments above about weaponry
It's not the "whole military", I realize that. But it's the core part of the military. Only so many people can fit on ships or in airplanes.
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I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
My point is, this is a pointless law because we have no shortage of soldiers. Why force people to join the military if we already have plenty as it is?
Yeledef outstanding post, more or less along the lines of what I had in mind There are all kinds of ways this could be done.
No, it's communist because he is proposing that the government should tell people what they should do with their lives, and what jobs they should hold.
"You! go to the peace corps for two years."
"You! Go to the navy for three years."
"You! Be a civil servant for four years! Your government demands this of you, comrade! Do it for the good of your Nation!"
No thanks, I have my own plans for life as do millions of others. If someone CHOOSES to do this, well, that's democratic, freedom, and American. Forcing someone to do something for a set number of years is akin to slavery.
Don't start with the "schooling is mandatory" thing. EVERYONE went to school because they are minors. They don't have a choice in the matter until they turn 18. After you turn 18 you are given the choice to drop out of school if you want. If you are forcing adults over the age of 18 to do this, then yes, that's communism, plain and simple. Being told what to do by a bunch of lofty-headed bureaucrats is not freedom or American in the slightest.
P.S.: to the person who made the comment about red lights being communism, you're wrong. Stopping at a red light is nothing compared to being told what to do & when to do it for a chunk of my life by the government instead of pursuing my future goals.
Last edited by UntamedOhioan; 03-11-2010 at 02:14 PM..
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Do you get paid to go to school? Think of this as a brief extension of your schooling.
There are all kinds of ways this could be done.
UntamedOhioan
