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Like I said before - I don't think there is a way to even the playing field. The way that men can control the situation is by either not having sex in the first place or by wearing a condom.
I hope you're not pro-choice. If you are, I have no beef with your position since it is intellectually consistent. However, if you're pro-choice, one who is pro-life could make the same argument about women: (they can wear a female condom, take one of many forms of birth control, etc).
For the record, I am neither pro-life nor pro-choice so I'm not approaching this from either angle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
Some things in life just aren't fair and there is no way to make them fair. Although it takes a man and a woman to make a baby - only the woman can actually get pregnant and have the baby. That's just biology. And like Darren point out - once a man gets a woman pregnant - he can simply leave. Men do it all the time.
Leaving is not a viable, realistic option to anyone who wants to make a clean break. Women can make a clean break in multiple ways while men don't have any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
And people throw around the word abortion like it's so simple. I've known people that have gotten abortions. They weren't simple. And I don't even just mean emotionally. It wreaks havoc on your body.
You can choose to look at it in a way that makes it seems like women have all the options and that that's a good thing - but as a woman who has never gotten pregnant accidentally - this was one of my BIGGEST fears when I was younger. It's not like the decision to have a baby or get an abortion is like which color to paint your toenails. It can change your entire life.
Let's take out abortion to fit your argument. Women still have morning after pills, safe havens, and adoption. That's still women's options 3, men's options 0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
But once again - not having options post conception doesn't negate the fact that they had options PRIOR to conception. When you only look at the post conception situation - you are basically making it seem like the accidental pregnancy was something that "happened" to the man but was controlled by the woman - and that is not the case.
See my statement above about pro-lifers saying the same thing about women's pre-conception options. Female condoms, birth control, etc.
It's mutually agreed by all sides of the argument that pregnancy IS controlled by women. I don't leave men off the hook for contributing to this problem. The point of this thread is once again, which gender is MOST responsible, not ENTIRELY responsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole
Just the fact that the father doesn't even have to go through an abortion, or agonize over whether to give the baby up for adoption, let alone pregnancy and childbirth, makes the "playing field" pretty good for him doesn't it?
I've already resolved your concern by keeping in place the current "keep the baby, abort, safe haven, or adopt" options women already have. What more do you want? Women still have all of the birth options they currently have under my proposal.
Well said. I am surprised that in a modern/advanced country like the USA nothing has been made for fathers to have more rights with these kinds of issues.
I blame men. They were so guilty about the history of subservient women, they gave away some rights instead of equalizing them. If anything, it proves they still don't see women as their equals as I do. They see them as a weaker group that needs to be "protected", which is condescending.
Maybe people...you mean men...scratch that, single guys who either don't want or don't yet have kids don't agree with this "advantage" because women can avoid all of these things you list by taking a morning after pill or obtaining an abortion.
the only one of those things that is 100% is abstaining, the others don't always work
the only one of those things that is 100% is abstaining, the others don't always work
Please don't change my posts, this is what I really said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
Maybe people don't agree with this "advantage" because women can avoid all of these things you list by taking a morning after pill or obtaining an abortion.
If you want to debate, please counter me with your own points instead of changing mine.
To your point above: If you are pro-life, I have no beef with your argument since it generally holds both men and women accountable post-conception. If you are pro-choice, holding men accountable to one standard and women to another is intellectually inconsistent.
I can't speak for everyone - but I know that my outlook on all this has changed since I had my son. I fell in love with him the second I knew I was pregnant with him - and even more so when I actually got to meet him face to face. I love him more and more everyday. I can't even think about women that put their children up for adoption - I can't imagine what that must do to them. Even thinking about that can bring me to tears.
I'm pro-choice but I have no idea what I would do in that situation. And I don't think it's as easy a decision as people make it out to be. And the morning after pill is still a decision. I simply think people should have the choice - regardless of how I feel about it.
Oh - and I've never said that women had no part in this. Where did I suggest that women don't have options prior to conception? I'm NOT saying that men are more to blame. I'm saying that it takes TWO people making a bad decision. She could have been on a pill or made him wear a condom or simply not had sex. He could have worn a condom or simply not had sex.
I don't know a lot of people who had children out of wedlock. My male friend that had a baby out of wedlock married the mother shortly after. They had been together for awhile and they were both in their 30's. I have a couple girlfriends that were engaged when they got pregnant - one got married before the baby was born and the other didn't (I don't think she and her boyfriend put that much importance on being married). The girls that I knew when I was younger that got pregnant out of wedlock - one of them was 16 and the father said he was going to be around and help out. I think he split. I'm not sure what happened with the other one but seeing as how she slept around (self-esteem) issues - I doubt the father was her boyfriend.
I just don't think that playing the blame game accomplishes that much. I think that we should do a better job teaching our children about safe sex. I think we need to make sure they understand that there are consequences to their actions. If, as a man, you know that ultimately the woman has the choice to keep the baby or not - don't get yourself into that situation in the first place. And if, as a woman, you know that you are the one that might have to make the decision all alone and you can't handle that - don't get yourself into that situation in the first place. Actions have consequences. Blaming others for our mistakes doesn't help anything.
It's not "apples and oranges" simply because you say so. You make a mutual commitment to marriage and a mutual commitment to have sex.
LOL sex doesn't require commitment.
Again, it's apples and oranges. Dewdrops said it perfectly:
Apples and oranges because having sex is not a legal commitment. I think it is very rare that married people who really know each other and are really committed to each other find themselves in the scenario that you described.
Your OP was about out of wedlock births - not divorce settlements. They are two different subjects.
Apples and oranges because having sex is not a legal commitment. I think it is very rare that married people who really know each other and are really committed to each other find themselves in the scenario that you described.
Your OP was about out of wedlock births - not divorce settlements. They are two different subjects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole
LOL sex doesn't require commitment.
Again, it's apples and oranges. Dewdrops said it perfectly:
Apples and oranges because having sex is not a legal commitment. I think it is very rare that married people who really know each other and are really committed to each other find themselves in the scenario that you described.
Your OP was about out of wedlock births - not divorce settlements. They are two different subjects.
Hi Dewdrop and Cindy,
It's an analogy, and the definition fits my use in this thread.
In this thread's topic, there IS a legal commitment since pregnancy occurs and the woman keeps the child. That legal commitment is state family law, which ironically marriage also falls under. If this analogy isn't apples and apples, what in the world is?
What exactly is your definition very rare? I see the lazy non-working husband or wife scenarios often in the real world and online. Just the threads on this forum certainly qualify as more than "very rare".
It's an analogy, and the definition fits my use in this thread.
In this thread's topic, there IS a legal commitment since pregnancy occurs and the woman keeps the child. That legal commitment is state family law, which ironically marriage also falls under. If this analogy isn't apples and apples, what in the world is?
What exactly is your definition very rare? I see the lazy husband or lazy wife scenarios often in the real world and online.
I'm saying that your OP was about which gender is most responsible for out of wedlock births - not about divorce. Two separate topics. You can try to make them into one topic - but I would suggest a different thread.
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