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I'm sick of reading arguments regarding gay marriage and religion. Marriage predates religion, and it certainly predates Judeo-Christian religions. If you don't like it, just say so and leave the God argument out of it.
Marriage DOES NOT predate God, who is not only the source of Judeo-Christian "religions" - but is the source of all of mankind.
Marriage DOES NOT predate God, who is not only the source of Judeo-Christian "religions" - but is the source of all of mankind.
Even if what you say WERE true, even the "biblical" definition of marriage has evolved.... from marrying relatives, to concubines, plural marriage, etc. Not exactly the best source of what "god defined" marriage is or should be!
Gay marriage will happen but it won't be called marriage. Gay marriage will not happen in our lifetime because of the present insistence by gays that "gay marriage" not have any difference from "marriage". That is a real problem because one characteristic of "marriage" is that churches perform a huge percentage, maybe the majority of marriages recognized by the State. Gays can't have "marriage" until the churches get down with it. Good luck with that.
Ridiculous. Civil marriage and religious marriage are completely unrelated, separate things. Just because many people choose to file their civil marriage paperwork at the same time they sanctify their religious marriage does not mean that churches have any involvement in the civil marriage contract. They don't. Gay marriage will happen soon, and it will be called marriage. The Supreme Court will get it right (just as lower court after lower court have been doing) - they're aware of the Constitutional promises that all people be treated equally under the civil, secular laws of the US. There is not a civil marriage law exception to that promise.
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We were using aerosol sprays and flourocarbon refrigerants for 50 years before we discovered they were bad for the ozone layer. It might be that there is no harm in pretending that gay lifestyle and behavior can co-exist healthily alongside traditional heterosexual behavior but there simply is no evidence to insist this is true. What we know from biology is that there is an energy cost to reproduction. Given its druthers, an organism would not reproduce. Ever. That would be bad, so reproduction was built in as a compulsion. Hardwired, if you will.
Yet esentially every higher animal species has within it a small (well, not always small - consider bees for instance), non-reproductive segment. This segment is often homosexual (and sometimes directly contributes to the propagation of the species - black swans for instance). May I suggest you do a little thinking and expand your naive understanding of biology.
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65,000 years, more or less, that's how humans have rolled: boy meets girl, boy bonks girl... who's your daddy? If there were down low cave-men they were careful not to leave any condoms lying around. Why do so many persist with the subterfuge of 'down low' behavior in these permisive times? I don't know but it just may be that some things need to stay under the radar.
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For 65,000 years, more or less, a minority of humans have rolled: boy meets boy - or girl meets girl. It's not like it's a new phenomenon.
Marriage DOES NOT predate God, who is not only the source of Judeo-Christian "religions" - but is the source of all of mankind.
link?
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Originally Posted by Natural510
I'm sick of reading arguments regarding gay marriage and religion. Marriage predates religion, and it certainly predates Judeo-Christian religions. If you don't like it, just say so and leave the God argument out of it.
And gay behaviour predates marriage, religion and the religous invention of god. I'm pretty sure man was NOT born with instructions printed on their privates, there was probably a LOT of trial and error and i suspect prehistoric man put their thing in a lot of strange places... HAM - Europa - Italy - prehistoric art - 001
You're entering into a really weird, and quite pointless, semantic argument here. Normalcy and tradition are not mutually exclusive concepts. Traditions are long-standing rituals or customs and originated in the past and have been passed down through the generations without interruption. Any social scientist would define marriage as a tradition and a marriage. You can argue all you want, but if you say it's not a tradition then the definition you use for tradition is incorrect. Not even sure why it matters, traditions often become highly institutionalized and valued for their own sake, it's not a bad thing.
Maybe I should have said it's not just tradition. My point was that marriage plays a very important part in the well being of society. It's not something we do in a rote manner just becuse people before us did it.
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Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
What is more curious is your assertion that marriage 'has always been..." Marriage is a human-construction that is certainly old, but your statement almost makes it sound like you believe marriage has been static and unchanging since time immemorial which is laughable. Marriage has evolved tremendously over the past few millennia. Indeed, the idea that marriage was about love is a rather recent phenomena. Marriages in many cultures were, for a long time, arranged and were done so for political or survival purposes to unite families. In some cultures marriage was not a monogamous institution. In certain periods of history marriages required a dowry, in others a bride price. Marriages used to be extremely unequal, with the woman fully controlled by the man. In the past two centuries marriage took on it's contemporary, secular form where it became a legal contract binding two people in the eyes of the state.
Regardless of the stipulations humans add to marriage, it has always existed. There has always been a base principle of what marriage is. One man, one woman in agreement to cleave together for life.
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Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
So marriage is only worthwhile or legitimate for child-bearing purposes? So sterile heterosexuals should not be able to marry? A woman who has gone through menopause shouldn't be allowed to marry? A couple that chooses not to have children shouldn't be allowed to marry? If marriage is solely valuable as a social institution because it creates a strong union between father and mother then the logical implication is that sterile people, the elderly and those who don't want children should not be legally allowed to marry. Additionally, polygamous marriages should be, by your logic, more valuable to society because they can produce more children with more adults to take part in the raising of the child.
Fact is, in modern society marriage is not strictly about child-bearing, it's one component but not a necessary one. It's about receiving public recognition of a loving commitment to stay together for life and take care of one another and its about securing state-provided benefits. Children may or may not be a part of that. You seem to be using a very archaic definition of marriage that is completely unrelated and unrepresentative of what marriage means in a modern secular society.
I agree with the bold part. I believe procreation is a large part of the equation here. And no, having children is not necessary for marriage.
My view on marriage is based on the Creator view of marriage. And since He created human beings, I have faith in His design for us.
Even if what you say WERE true, even the "biblical" definition of marriage has evolved.... from marrying relatives, to concubines, plural marriage, etc. Not exactly the best source of what "god defined" marriage is or should be!
...which is the problem. God's plan for marriage has not changed. He created us. I believe he knows what's best. He says homosexuality is not good. I believe that too.
...which is the problem. God's plan for marriage has not changed. He created us. I believe he knows what's best. He says homosexuality is not good. I believe that too.
Good thing we're not talking about God's plan for marriage - we're discussing the civil, secular marriage laws of the US.
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