Is the country really one nation under God? (elections, claims, laws)
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In the first sentence you attempt to change the title of the thread. It is not "One nation under Christ".
The phrase, "under god", is the framework for the nation. This is really nothing more then a statement "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". It means that your basic human rights do not come from the government, and that they cannot be taken away by government either. That is why the phrase exists, to protect your unalienable rights from some future tyrant, who would desire to take your right to life and liberty from you.
If you right to life and liberty come from laws, then with one election cycle, those laws can be struck down, and your rights and liberty can be utterly stripped away.
What else is eternal, what else can declare your rights and freedoms can never be taken away from you? If there is no higher power then the government, and our rights and freedoms are simply words on a piece of paper, then they can be deleted, erased and circular filed.
Without getting philosophical, where would you otherwise say that these eternal and unalienable rights come from? Where does this idea come from that people are born free? If there is no higher power then government, and government writes the laws, then those laws protecting your rights are a pen stroke from being made obsolete.
As silly as it might sound to an atheist, there needs to be something greater, something eternal that says you have these unalienable rights, some higher authority to prevent simple men, who happened to have won a general election, from taking all of your rights and liberty away from you. Hello Communist China, and North Korea.
First, you are 180 degrees wrong. Since it has been clearly shown that this country was founded and has always been secular, it is totally impossible for "under God" to be the framework for anything governmental. The phrase came into use in the Pledge in 1954.
You can't change Constitutional law by having an election. Maybe you'll scare a few people, but you won't change the Constitution. That requires 2/3 majority in both the House and the Senate before it is sent to the States for another super majority to be adopted.
A pen stroke from being made obsolete? Are you nuts? That implies the President can take constitutional rights away with an Executive Order. Not going to happen. There are nine judges sitting there to preserve the Constitution.
That's why simple men getting elected can't take your rights away.
"Met at the pole." Are you saying they weren't allowed to meet inside because of their religious beliefs?
Individuals are legally allowed to pray wherever they want... so I'm guessing they met "at the pole" because that's where you say the Pledge of Allegiance.
Were we somehow more Godly when slaughtering the native peoples was a popular pastime? When witch trials were in fashion? Were we deeper in God's grasp during those times?
Yup, those were the good ol' days! Killing and pillaging in the name of religion, it's an American tradition...
What does one thing have to do with the other? I don't know of any study saying Christian countries are better or more moral than non-religious ones.
The US has been abusing and killing innocent people around the world for decades, not to mention at home for centuries. Despite its supposedly Christian nature...
Where did I ever mention Christ or Christianity?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
You know, when people say they need to believe this and that was given by gods, they ignore that humans themselves have decided what exactly those gods have given and said. So they might as well say gods want humans to kill a certain group of people. We hijack an illusion to promote and justify and give more authority to our human views, which however are subjective. Isn't that one of the reasons many people in the West dislike Islam so much?
Seems everything I said flew right over your head. You are stuck on religion, even though I never mentioned religion.
First, you are 180 degrees wrong. Since it has been clearly shown that this country was founded and has always been secular, it is totally impossible for "under God" to be the framework for anything governmental. The phrase came into use in the Pledge in 1954.
You can't change Constitutional law by having an election. Maybe you'll scare a few people, but you won't change the Constitution. That requires 2/3 majority in both the House and the Senate before it is sent to the States for another super majority to be adopted.
A pen stroke from being made obsolete? Are you nuts? That implies the President can take constitutional rights away with an Executive Order. Not going to happen. There are nine judges sitting there to preserve the Constitution.
That's why simple men getting elected can't take your rights away.
The US Constitution has been amended before, so don;t act as if it cannot never be.
I tried to give a basis in thought for why I envisioned "under god" was being used to describe a nation "with liberty and justice for all".
I'm not pushing any religion, since, when it comes to believing in a god or religion, I'm am an agnostic.
Where did the basis for the principle come from, the thought that people are endowed with certain unalienable rights? If it came from words on a piece of paper, then we are screwed, because if they are written, they can be unwritten, or replaced by more words. The thought that people are born free, and have an natural right to life and liberty transcends any religion, or law written by man. The day we forget that, or ignore it, and revert to trusting in the laws of men, we may as well pack it in and become slaves of the state.
The idea that we are all a free people should not require a law to make it so, that thought, that realization, comes from something beyond the laws of men. If you believe in a a religion, then our unalienable rights are simply identified as coming from god. That is all I'm saying.
If it came from words on a piece of paper, then we are screwed, because if they are written, they can be unwritten, or replaced by more words.
I'm not sure quite what that means in real terms. Because unless God is willing to come down and intervene physically, they still are just "words on paper."
Let's say that back in the early 1800's you were a slave, or someone languishing without trial in a debtor's prison, or an Indian being shoved to and fro between reservations. And that you got ahold of copies of the Declaration of Independence and The US Constitution, stood up, and demanded that your God-given rights be respected.
Well, you would have been smacked right back down and ignored, if not killed.
So... how were those sentiments anything more than "words on paper"?
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