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Old 02-01-2012, 09:17 AM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,234,707 times
Reputation: 2618

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
I don't need you or the government to tell me how to raise my children. We have way too many busy bodies today who think their opinions should be imposed on others.
And your children don't need to be essentially forced into breathing in cigarette smoke. Sorry, but this right of theirs weighs more heavily than your supposed right not to be judged. If you can defend whatever it is that someone's trying to call wrong, fine. Do so. But don't hide behind the illusion that because they're your children, no one else has a stake in how they turn out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
You think it's abuse to smoke around children. I may think it's abuse to let them watch TV. Others may think it's abuse to let them read Paul Krugman.
That's not what I said. But if you knew of an abusive parent (one who certifiably caused harm directly to their child), suddenly you would have to turn on your own philosophy. Or else be truly heartless and let it happen. Whether it's secondhand smoke, television or anything else for that matter, the question is always "Justified or unjust?" The difference between good parenting and bad parenting is the acceptance or rejection of this mindset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
So just worry about your children and I'll worry about mine.
Will you, though? Will you stop and think about the things you do and say around them, how it can affect them and others THROUGH them as they grow up? That's all I'm asking of you.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:19 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,606,588 times
Reputation: 3225
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
If cigarettes have been found to be so bad then why are they still being sold ?
For the simple reason that if they stopped selling them, they would become a black market item and would be just another drug the DEA would have to track. Alcohol prohibition didn't work, the blanket prohibition of drugs isn't working, and cigarette prohibition won't work either. I think they're trying to, pardon the pun, choke smoking out gradually, by just making it more and more unwelcome in public places -- and more expensive. And that's probably not a bad strategy to effectively ban or stringently curb the use of an addictive product, and it's probably a model for how we should solve the narcotics problems in this country.

Take marijuana, coke, meth, or whatever and make it a for-profit corporate product. Dress it up. Allow executives who can live with it on their conscience the opportunity to make money off of regulated and controlled addictions that are substantially less potent than those that are found in back alleys across the globe. Let them produce the product according to strict government specifications. Let them produce a refined product that gives users a slight buzz with each dose but nothing more (like absinthe or something similar). Tax it. Make it expensive, and effectively make users pay for public addiction recovery programs with their tax revenues on the product. Make it unacceptable in public but tolerable in private as long as people behave themselves.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:37 AM
 
20,666 posts, read 8,809,628 times
Reputation: 7134
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
What do you think smokers do every time they get on an airplane? Or, go to a ball game? Or a movie? Or a school play? They wait, with no obvious ill effects.

There are lots of places smokers are required to wait, so your statement is false on the face of it.
I actually know a few people who chew tobacco or use a nicotine patch or chew the gum when they can't have a cigarette. Do you get anxious when you have to wait to have one. They do thus the need to get the nicotine from somewhere else.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,762,827 times
Reputation: 9292
In Canada it is against the law to smoke in a car with kids...I can see the smoke box effect - if the person lights up with the widows up and the car at a stand still in traffic....BUT - if you have the vents on - all the window open and you are doing...70 mph...all of the smoke rapidly LEAVES the car and it is no ones buisness if you smoke..People who are looking out for other peoples kids should mind their own buisness anyway - take care of your own.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,652,720 times
Reputation: 7720
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
For the simple reason that if they stopped selling them, they would become a black market item and would be just another drug the DEA would have to track. Alcohol prohibition didn't work, the blanket prohibition of drugs isn't working, and cigarette prohibition won't work either. I think they're trying to, pardon the pun, choke smoking out gradually, by just making it more and more unwelcome in public places -- and more expensive. And that's probably not a bad strategy to effectively ban or stringently curb the use of an addictive product, and it's probably a model for how we should solve the narcotics problems in this country.

Take marijuana, coke, meth, or whatever and make it a for-profit corporate product. Dress it up. Allow executives who can live with it on their conscience the opportunity to make money off of regulated and controlled addictions that are substantially less potent than those that are found in back alleys across the globe. Let them produce the product according to strict government specifications. Let them produce a refined product that gives users a slight buzz with each dose but nothing more (like absinthe or something similar). Tax it. Make it expensive, and effectively make users pay for public addiction recovery programs with their tax revenues on the product. Make it unacceptable in public but tolerable in private as long as people behave themselves.

There's a black market for cigarettes because of high taxes now, especially in places like New York City where the per carton price can be $100. And, as with the 55 mph speed limit, its bred a generation of scofflaws who thumb their noses at silly smoking laws.

Since that's been the result, which do you favor? Ignoring the violators? Dedicating police resources to catch them? Or, do as we did with prohibition and the artificially low speed limit...retrench and eliminate the offending laws?
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:44 AM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,421,030 times
Reputation: 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by redvelvet709 View Post
Folks who smoke are slaves to their addiction, so the willpower to not smoke while in the car, kids or not, just isn't there. It's a self-indulgent habit. Try asking a smoker to wait for their cigarette.
Maybe some are, but I wouldn't generalize as such.

You seem to have a certain personal objection to smoking in general. That is, it appears to go past that of any reasonable evaluation and into the realm of prejudice of an action to which your opinions towards those is per-defined regardless of the consistency of their occurrence to your belief.

This is the problem with the research and the attitudes of those who espouse such rhetoric. All aspects of behavior and position that diverge from your prejudice are excused or lackadaisically explained away as some unfounded reason for its occurrence. This allows you to keep your predefined view in some sort of rationalized existence.

Note that this type of rationalization is also common in many forms of prejudicial behavior and is the foundation of an illogical and emotionally derived process.

/shrug
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,652,720 times
Reputation: 7720
Quote:
Originally Posted by natalie469 View Post
I actually know a few people who chew tobacco or use a nicotine patch or chew the gum when they can't have a cigarette. Do you get anxious when you have to wait to have one. They do thus the need to get the nicotine from somewhere else.

Most people I know just wait without any aids. The reality is that most smokers are habitual smokers, not addicts. As with any drug, legal or otherwise, the incidence of actual, physical addiction is quite low.

Do I get anxious? No. I was required not to smoke on an 8 day mission trip to Haiti and never missed them the whole time, except for a couple of mornings when a smoke with my morning coffee would have been great.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
1,075 posts, read 822,776 times
Reputation: 488
[quote=Vic 2.0;22798218] I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster who pulled this cliche: What if you see a parent punch their kid in the face? You gonna do something, or mind your own business? A quick review of this thread will educate you as to why there is really no such thing as "My business, your business"; only justified and unjustified.
[quote]

I've actually answered this question and you either didn't see it or ignored it. The difference between an adult HITTING/abusing a child and someone smoking in a car with a child is the "imminent" threat.

Imminent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Quote:
: ready to take place; especially: hanging threateningly over one's head <was in imminent danger of being run over>
A person in the process or about to punch a child in the face (or wherever) is imminent and imediate danger to that child. They are actually BEING harmed right that minute.

A person smoking in the car with a child is a "potential" threat/harm.

Potential - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Quote:
existing in possibility : capable of development into actuality <potential benefits>
Even though there are some studies that show the possible harmful affects on a person, they are neither immediate/imminent nor are they even a definitive threat to that child. It is only a potential or possible threat... which means, you and no one else will no for certain what if anything will happen to that child from being exposed that one time (or many) to cigerette smoke.

The affects of SHS is debateable and questionable... much like it's debateable and questionable how much TV a child should watch per day, or how much video games, exercise, veggetables, hugs, etc a child should get per day. It is an opinion that cigerette smoke is harmful, and there is no definitive proof, 100% that it actually is.

Therefore, BECAUSE it is only an opinion that it's harmful, and it's only an opinion that it's even a POTENTIAL harm at that, then it is there for NO ONE'S BUSINESS what that parent or any other parent does with or around their child.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:34 AM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,421,030 times
Reputation: 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
This is at very least what they should do. Give their kids a CHANCE to avoid it. But then, it isn't everyday you can have the windows down, much less be doing 70 mph. And I'm not entirely sure that the vents alone are enough to dilute (for lack of a better word) the cigarette smoke with air from the outside.
This is an interesting point.

Ask yourself... how much smoke is required to reach such levels of danger or toxicity?

Get detailed about it. Maybe breakdown all of the elements in smoke and then look up according to the Surgeon General, National Cancer Institute, and the EPA how much exposure to each of those specific elements is required for it to reach a toxic level.

Don't look up SHS, look up each chemical within SHS and then see what those agencies state per each element individually.

hint: get ready for some confusion between their classification of SHS and that of each chemical. It is a doozy.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:42 AM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,234,707 times
Reputation: 2618
Wyndsong, understand that I'm not suggesting either smoking or even smoking in the car with children should be illegal. I'm suggesting that it is just as much my right to speak out against a potential harm to children as it is to speak out against imminent threat. If there is any good defense for behavior that "only" presents risk, parents can let it be known. Let their voice be heard. But this is just watered down censorship to stifle exposition of the truth, to tell someone to mind their own business.

Besides, there is a whole list of exceptions. Certain drugs can be given to children, alcohol can be given to infants and it's a guessing game as to how much poses an imminent danger to them (coupled with anecdotal evidence that small doses do no harm), emotional abuse may be harmful but maybe not. Same with sexual abuse. You have to wait and see what the results are? That's not very rational at all. It is still my business to the degree that I can tell parents they're wrong, especially if all they can do to defend themselves is tell me suspiciously to butt out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
In Canada it is against the law to smoke in a car with kids...I can see the smoke box effect - if the person lights up with the widows up and the car at a stand still in traffic....BUT - if you have the vents on - all the window open and you are doing...70 mph...all of the smoke rapidly LEAVES the car...
This is at very least what they should do. Give their kids a CHANCE to avoid it. But then, it isn't everyday you can have the windows down, much less be doing 70 mph. And I'm not entirely sure that the vents alone are enough to dilute (for lack of a better word) the cigarette smoke with air from the outside.
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