ACLU seeks $173,000 in school banner case (kids, documents, work, women)

[padcrasher]

Originally Posted by ottomobeale

Christians are bullies? Uh in modern society, try again.

Yes that's absurd. During the Crusades you might have an argument because we occupied their land against the will of their people.

Nowadays. We never have our military in the Middle East and we never bomb them or torture them. Or go in and remove dictators not friendly to us.

Good point.

[edwardianlady]

No one forces her to read the banner .These athesists aren't going to be happy until every last drop of religion is out of public schools including coursework covering all faiths.It is little wonder the ACLU took the case they but their nose into everything .

[Skinny Puppy]

Originally Posted by edwardianlady

No one forces her to read the banner .These athesists aren't going to be happy until every last drop of religion is out of public schools including coursework covering all faiths.It is little wonder the ACLU took the case they but their nose into everything .

Government and religion should not mix. Don't like it, take it up with the founding fathers.

[BigHouse9]

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

It's an old saying among lawyers that when the facts support your case, argue the facts. When the law supports your case, argue the law. It appears you've come up with an addendum: When neither facts nor law supports your case, call your opponents idiots lacking in common sense.

There is an old saying "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck" or how about this one "Call a spade a spade".

Hence the term liberal idiots.

[gallowsCalibrator]

Originally Posted by edwardianlady

No one forces her to read the banner .These athesists aren't going to be happy until every last drop of religion is out of public schools including coursework covering all faiths.It is little wonder the ACLU took the case they but their nose into everything .

There's no problem with teaching about religion in a secular way. When you have school-directed prayer, there's a problem.

8-foot mural on a gym wall? Problem.

[Dane_in_LA]

Originally Posted by BigHouse9

There is an old saying "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck" or how about this one "Call a spade a spade".

Hence the term liberal idiots.

To each their own, I guess. Blowing through $170,000 of your constituents' money on a quixotic quest to keep a prayer banner in a school seems like the act of an idiot to me.

[Skinny Puppy]

Originally Posted by BigHouse9

There is an old saying "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck" or how about this one "Call a spade a spade".

Hence the term liberal idiots.

The case will cost the school almost 200K, looks to me like they are the idiots. I guess we can call them job creators as they contributed to the lawyers law firm.

[EricGold]

Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator

I would suggest looking at various cases and their outcomes. Just because something is not directly stated in the constitution does not mean that precedence has not been made.

In any case, it's common sense that, in this non-theocratic country, that government and religion should stay separate.

If you think that this mural in this school is meddling govt and religion, than I just can't help you.

Try reading the case.

You'll find that not only was there an almost "religious revival" in a school board meeting, but that the school board freely admits that the prayer espoused their religious values.

Not even the school board is trying to say that it's non-denominational.

The School board also said that it was inclusive enough to be attached to any religion, some wanted it for its history, others said it reflected their secular values...its not like everyone wanted it to stay because "Jesus" told them so. And several Members, not the entire board where basing their decision on their beliefs, not because the banner itself was of their beliefs.

It's an 8-foot mural on the gym wall. Considering how much goes on in a school gym, it's not some "random wall"

its still a random wall, its not like its on the Marque on the outside of the School on display where it will be far more visible....and seeing as how it was hung a bit high on on the wall (it is a banner after all) and giving the the sizes of gyms, you would have to go directly up and under it to read it..its not like its in your face as soon as you step into the gym....so yeah still a random wall. and an 8 foot banner is kinda small for a banner.

So basically, the school can't respect the establishment of a religion, but it can't stop the students from doing their own prayers (as long as they're not distracting/disrupting the class).

Works for me.

OK

Kids can still pray on their own time - or have their own copies of the prayer.

OK

The fact that it was 8-feet tall and on the gym wall? Different story.

nope, still a random wall....its a school, people are going to be all over the place, assembly halls, cafeterias, hallways.....hell, the fact that its in the gym and not the hallway makes it even more of a "random" spot for you only have gym class periodically, you have to walk down the hallways all the time. Hell, in some schools you can even opt-out of Gym class.

When the school board freely admits that it's religious, then it's religious.

It's not just the use of "Our Heavenly Father". Please see the etymology of the word "amen".

No, several members of the School Board, not the entire Board were using their religious views to vote in favor of the banner...they didn't vote for the banner because the banner itself was religious...They never said, "this banner belongs to Jesus" or something....take those WWJD bracelets...people do things based on their beliefs, not because what they are doing is necessarily religious.

and So amen can be find in Quran, Hinduism and ancient Egypt and all over the place, what's your point?

It's not just that the courts said so. It's common sense.

A public school should not be promoting a religious prayer.

A school board should not treat a vote on said mural as a religious revival.

That mural was more secular then anything else and in encouraged academic achievement, religious prayers tends to be in worship of some deity or following some kind of dogma , you keep saying its promoting religion...what religion?...and wouldn't the promotion of religion involve compelling you to go to some kind of place of worship or worship some god or asking you to do something of religious nature? ...did any of that take place in that mural?

It was asked nicely that they take it down.

They got uber religious.

It was taken to the courts.

Courts said "lolno".

And the religious community responds to getting their hands smacked by calling her names and treating her like crap. Last I checked, it wasn't very Christian to threaten a minor child to the point she needed a police escort. Perhaps the school did need their religious prayer to keep themselves in check.

How sad.

Why should the entire school, the entire community cater to the whims of a 16 year old?...why should that mural that has been sitting there for nearly 50 years be taken down because one student couldn't find something better to do with her time? why should future students be denied that inspirational mural?.....they got "uber religious"?, of course they did, how else were they going to respond in the face of uber intolerance?

I will admit the threats going towards her are wrong, that being said some religious leaders did come to her defense, so its not like all Christians are threatening her, in-fact on some right-wing blogs they are even praying for her, so maybe you should take a better look at the "religious community" before saying such things........the fact the a 16 year don't have anything better to do with her time then pick a fight with the school over something as trivial as this and all the internet basement dwelling atheists with nothing better going on in their lives rallying behind and praising this girl is pretty pathetic.

See the etymology of "amen".

Also, the school board said otherwise. Try reading the case.

So amen can be find in Quran, Hinduism and ancient Egypt and all over the place.....again, what's your point?

Several members, not the entire board said they are voting in favor of the banner based on their beliefs...not because the banner itself was of their beliefs....

She fought for her beliefs. Also, not a piece of paper. Try 8-foot mural.

She was offended by this mural, she wasn't doing this for some righteous cause...she stop believing in God when she was real young and when she saw that mural she took offense....that was the motive to her actions...not the legality of the mural or she saw some constitutional violation....she just didn't like it...that is her "beliefs"....and what makes her "beliefs" more important then anyone else beliefs?....again, liberals seem to think only their rights matter....but I am sure you don't care....you people are the "ends justify the means" type. if following behind a 16 year little brat get you what you want, than so be it.

It's true. Kids hates shots. But they're meant to be helpful.

Apparently more than some in this thread.

the left are so warped with their totalitarian fetishes that they would gladly follow behind a 16 year old girl, still wet behind the ears to further their cause. You may feel as if the girl is "smart" because she talk a good liberal game...you can have that.

You speak as if a 16-year old girl cannot be intelligent enough to understand case law... oh wait. She does. Seeing as how she won the case.

if you want to praise this 16 year for her intelligence than go ahead...

This blather just sounds like a temper tantrum from a kid who got a shot he didn't want.

a temper tantrum?...as if you people running around suing everything you don't like isn't some attention seeking, self-absorbed, arrogant, spoiled little child having a fit..."that's says 'Our Heavenly Father' is offending my little atheist feelings"...get over yourselves.

Religious in nature.

Read the case.

I read the case, the Judge thought that since it begin with "Our Heavenly father and ended with "amen" that it was a prayer....but what gives him the final say on whats "religious" and what isn't?...for I didn't see any specific deity named, no scriptures quoted and no dogma mentioned....all because the courts said so doesn't make it so...."Our heavenly father" might sound religious to you, but I have to actually hear some kind of religion named for it to be religious to me.....the courts also said Corporations are people and have rights....do you agree with that?

but, OK, fine if you want follow behind the judge with no thought of your own, or when it suits you, than fine, you can do that.

When the school board has a religious revival over a vote regarding taking it down, then yes, it's promoting a religion.

Also. See that this is not a hanging. It's an 8-foot mural in a place where many school events take place.

So some Christians got religious at a meeting...so what?...does that mean only Christians can hold on to that prayer?...that prayer is still vague enough that just about anybody can attach their religion to it..the fact that the Christians did doesn't mean Jews, Muslims, Mormons, etc, can't do the same..the school said so, they didn't say only Christians can draw inspiration from that Mural, they argued anyone could, they said that Mural was for everyone.

So the other students can have their own printouts to keep in the binders or backpacks.

School's not stopping them.

OK

The same could be said of religious folks who think it's okay to skirt the law because it's a tradition to blaspheme in such a way.

as if liberals going around suing to remove things they don't like left and right is somehow any better....at least religious folks had learn to tamper down a little over the years....atheists seem to be getting more and more militant and going out their way to make a point.

Neither Christian nor Muslim religion should be influencing factors in a public school setting.

Ok

There are more than two gender identities.

Oh look. That's a fact.

Schools teach facts.

I'm not going to argue this, I already know how you people feel about that...I don't need to hear anymore idiocy from that story.

And I'm a Jenova's Witness.

Big deal.

Wait, you just said there are more then two gender identities and then proclaim yourself a Jehovah's (which you spelled wrong) Witness?....OK I'm not even going to touch that..

Look, that mural has been there for 50 years given to them as a gift from the first graduating senior that was motivational and inspirational....not one soul in 50 years had a "problem" with it..I mean who would?...you read it, what was so offensive about it?.....having it removed and then proclaiming it was some kind of grand victory for yourselves is sad...it makes you come off as pathetic people with nothing better to do with yourselves...yes, the "courts" agree with you....you're still sad.

[gallowsCalibrator]

Originally Posted by EricGold

if you want to praise this 16 year for her intelligence than go ahead...

16 year olds can be intelligent. Quite simple.

a temper tantrum?...as if you people running around suing everything you don't like isn't some attention seeking, self-absorbed, arrogant, spoiled little child having a fit..."that's says 'Our Heavenly Father' is offending my little atheist feelings"...get over yourselves.

She did ask nicely, first.

They pranced about it and had themselves a fffiiiiiiine religious revival. Telling a 16-year old girl that removing the mural would be spitting in the face of G-d? Yeah. That's religious.

And a judge slapped their hands for it.

Religion only belong in school as part of secular study.

A school sanctioned "prayer mural" has no place.

I read the case, the Judge thought that since it begin with "Our Heavenly father and ended with "amen" that it was a prayer....

What page of the court transcript did you read this on?

but what gives him the final say on whats "religious" and what isn't?...for I didn't see any specific deity named, no scriptures quoted and no dogma mentioned....all because the courts said so doesn't make it so...."Our heavenly father" might sound religious to you, but I have to actually hear some kind of religion named for it to be religious to me.....the courts also said Corporations are people and have rights....do you agree with that?

Ah. You prove that you haven't actually read the court documentation.

Protip: You may want to.

but, OK, fine if you want follow behind the judge with no thought of your own, or when it suits you, than fine, you can do that.

Because the argument of "1T'S B33N TH3R3 FOR3V3R" doesn't fly in a court of law.

So some Christians got religious at a meeting...so what?

You see nothing wrong with a school board holding practically a religious revival at one of their meetings?

...does that mean only Christians can hold on to that prayer?...that prayer is still vague enough that just about anybody can attach their religion to it

Please see the etymology of the word 'amen'.

..the fact that the Christians did doesn't mean Jews, Muslims, Mormons, etc, can't do the same..the school said so, they didn't say only Christians can draw inspiration from that Mural, they argued anyone could, they said that Mural was for everyone.

What page of the transcript are you reading this from?

as if liberals going around suing to remove things they don't like left and right is somehow any better....at least religious folks had learn to tamper down a little over the years....atheists seem to be getting more and more militant and going out their way to make a point.

Yeah. The point of "keep your religion to yourself and out of the government".

Because that's a rampant "Duuuuuuuh".

Wait, you just said there are more then two gender identities and then proclaim yourself a Jehovah's (which you spelled wrong) Witness?....OK I'm not even going to touch that..

I did not spell Mother's name incorrect.

I'm a Jenova's Witness. Not a Jehovah's Witness.

Look, that mural has been there for 50 years

Appeal to tradition does not a good argument make.

given to them as a gift from the first graduating senior that was motivational and inspirational....

And?

not one soul in 50 years had a "problem" with it

What supporting evidence do you have to that?

you read it, what was so offensive about it?

It's not offensive.

It's religious. And it's in a school.

Big no-no.

.....having it removed and then proclaiming it was some kind of grand victory for yourselves is sad

More like "having it removed then rolling eyes at the reaction of so-called religious people as they threaten and attack a minor child".

.it makes you come off as pathetic people with nothing better to do with yourselves...yes, the "courts" agree with you....you're still sad.

We still look better than her State Rep - who lovingly referred to her as "an evil little thing".

[twinArmageddons]

People think the little girl is spoiled and spiteful and unintelligent?

Oh, idiotic bumbling cavemen.