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It certainly is incoherent nonsense is to everyone but a hard Leftist.
It's the tax and regulatory policies, not any trade agreement, that encouraged the manufacturing and other jobs exodus.
Please... read a couple of books, and stop buying the propaganda. I know, that is the mantra from corporate executives .... they are just forced to relocate off shore due to extreme taxes and stifling regulations, and it had nothing to do with replacing an American worker making $17/hr with a 12 year old foreigner being paid $1.35 per day for a 14 hour day
The first lie is the tax excuse ... since most of these corporations pay no tax at all. As for the regulations ... yes that's true ... they can't use children as captive workers in the US, because we have laws and regulations prohibiting SLAVERY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
And, trade tariffs are not the answer either. Remember it was the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930 that deepened and extended the Depression.
No I don't remember, as I wasn't born then ... but all sarcasm aside, there is a vast middle ground between drought and flood. But there are similarities between what we see happening now, and what occurred in the Great Depression .... one such similarity is the policies that are being purposely put in place to worsen the situation.
Without going into a deep explanation of the disastrous policies of that left wing communist traitor, FDR, who most certainly did prolong the great depression and inflict much more pain than would have occurred without the imposition of his socialistic restructuring of America (and his financial looting and heist of the last vestiges of wealth of the public by his confiscation of gold, and his devaluing the dollar at a time when most could least afford such robbery), over the past few decades, it has been precisely the "Free Trade" agreements and treaties that facilitated the exodus of manufacturing off shore, allowing Corporations that were manufacturing goods here to move overseas, and re-import those finished goods for sale here with ZERO import duties or tariffs under the provisions of those very trade agreements.
Opponents of those free trade agreements warned us of the disastrous effects they would have here in the US ... and in spite of the claims otherwise .... low and behold, the warnings were correct, and we've seen the results. Contrary to the claims of the proponents of "Globalization" more jobs were not produced here due to increased exports under those trade pacts ... we got larger trade deficits, and job losses ... precisely as the opponents had warned would result. And this is no longer a speculative matter .... the jury has returned it's verdict, and we can all see what has actually transpired. Remember that big eared fellow, Ross Perot who became somewhat of an icon by his "Remember Folks .... that giant sucking sound you'll hear is all of your jobs leaving the country"? Remember that??
Furthermore, the US consumer saved nothing (which was another false promise) with the supposed "cheaper" imported goods .... nope ... Levis still cost an arm and a leg, in spite of the large savings Levi Strauss Corp realized by massive reductions in manufacturing costs. They didn't pass on some of those savings ... they pocketed them in much higher profit margins. Nike tennis shoes didn't drop in price either. Nor anything else except various junk Chinese trinkets (often toxic) flooding the shelves at Walmart, as they proceeded to destroy small retail businesses, along with the local economies wherever they opened shop.
That's the reality of the situation, and it's well documented, even though you'll not hear this on FOX or CNN, or the New York Times.
Corporations wrote these pieces of legislation that their lapdogs in congress made law ... and it was sold to the public as a necessity to compete in the "Global Economy". What it was was NWO Globalist lies and propaganda ... coming from the same gangsters that are looting the Treasury of TRILLIONS as we speak.
Last edited by GuyNTexas; 02-09-2012 at 01:26 AM..
There's a reason high oil prices seem to be OK with the powers that be in the US and I think it has to do with the scenario in the original post. In fact, an argument could be made that the Feds and FED are driving the high oil price by heavily devaluing the USD since QE1 began.
The US dollar has been in a downward decline for decades, most severely since 1973 when Nixon did away with what remained of the gold standard and made the US currency completely fiat Federal Reserve Notes.
Inflation (currently via QE 1-3.5) is a tax which hits the middle class the hardest. Just because our government chooses to leave gas and food out of the COI index does not mean that we are not experiencing inflation. So, by arguing for higher gas prices you are arguing for the further destruction of the working & middle classes. Expensive oil will not return jobs/manufacturing to our shores.
The truth about our demand driven economy at ~70% is that it is not sustainable. It needs to be more in the range of 60-65%. High oil prices knocking down demand is not a bad thing so long as exports increase as a result in the medium to long term. We've exhausted home grown demand. It will never be as high as it was before the last downturn due to a number of factors (namely consumer credit availability/ willingness of consumers to take on debt/ wage deflation). The days of sustaining meaningful jobs growth only from internal demand are gone. Internal demand will not drive most of the new jobs anymore. ..................
That would be correct. Because the US is in a post-industrial period right now, for a variety of reasons, all by design, we cannot sustain ourselves though the service economy we have currently. We do need to return manufacturing and the export of real product out of this country to attract the creation of wealth within our shores, not simply shuffle money around an aging population with the government being the largest consumer of wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
...................................Opponents of those free trade agreements warned us of the disastrous effects they would have here in the US ... and in spite of the claims otherwise .... low and behold, the warnings were correct, and we've seen the results. Contrary to the claims of the proponents of "Globalization" more jobs were not produced here due to increased exports under those trade pacts ... we got larger trade deficits, and job losses ... precisely as the opponents had warned would result. And this is no longer a speculative matter .... the jury has returned it's verdict, and we can all see what has actually transpired. Remember that big eared fellow, Ross Perot who became somewhat of an icon by his "Remember Folks .... that giant sucking sound you'll hear is all of your jobs leaving the country"? Remember that?? ..........
The problem is that those were not "free-trade" agreements, nor have been the ones that have followed. They have been unequal trade agreements and no matter what trade agreements we make the WTO can come in and change them or add a global tax to them to the disadvantage of the USA.
We will never be able to compete against "slave labor". If we are going to take the moral high road against child labor/slave wages, then we must pay the price out of our pocketbooks at the time of purchase. Americans will have to suck it up if they want manufacturing to return to the USA in one way or another. China-Mart/India-Mart has to become a thing of the past. Quality goods and services made here will demand a price to which our "disposable society" will have to adjust. The only way to adjust is for our government to offer incentives for US based multi-national corporations to repatriat profits and to stop paying able bodied people welfare so they can sit at home or pump out babies rather than supporting themselves through their own labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
..........Here, Mr. Perot pretty much explained what I said previously... and he was right on the money.
Indeed Perot was correct. It took almost 30 years but we are seeing the reprecussions of exactly what he described, as is Mexico.
Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 02-09-2012 at 01:45 AM..
The problem is that those were not "free-trade" agreements, nor have been the ones that have followed. They have been unequal trade agreements and no matter what trade agreements we make the WTO can come in and change them or add a global tax to them to the disadvantage of the USA.
It's far more simple .... the fact is, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have "equal" trade between a country of 300+ Million who's decent living standard exceeds exponentially the living standards of a third world nation with 1/10th of the population to which you might enter into a trade agreement with. The people are poor ...if they even are employed, their wages barely stretch to allow survival ..... they have no money to buy your products, so how can anyone expect to have balanced trade? It's impossible, and it is painfully obvious and very elementary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
We will never be able to compete against "slave labor". If we are going to take the moral high road against child labor/slave wages, then we must pay the price out of our pocketbooks at the time of purchase. Americans will have to suck it up if they want manufacturing to return to the USA in one way or another. China-Mart/India-Mart has to become a thing of the past. Quality goods and services made here will demand a price to which our "disposable society" will have to adjust. The only way to adjust is for our government to offer incentives for US based multi-national corporations to repatriat profits and to stop paying able bodied people welfare so they can sit at home or pump out babies rather than supporting themselves through their own labor.
I know you mean well, and I often agree with things you say ... but in this instance, you're way off the mark.
The American people did not create this problem, therefore "sucking it up" is not the issue, because those Levis cost just as much being made in Indonesia (paying child slaves $1 a day) as they did when they were sewn by an American adult seamstress being paid $14/hr. The only difference is that the American made version probably lasted longer, and Levi corp is now able to pocket a whole lot more profits that go into the hands of the few, at the expense of the many.
Even a simple can opener that might cost $5 which is made in China is a piece of crap ... we've bought two of them, and threw both away because they just didn't work well ... we bought a German made one for $15 and well probably use it till we die. At the end of the day, the more expensive product generally turns out to be much more cost effective in the long run, and saves money.
This holds true for just about everything anymore ... even major appliances .... most of the average to mid range priced products are cheap imitations of the truly high quality products that used to be made in the USA .... we had a 3 year old fridge that started acting up .... those things used to outlive their owners. Bought a Mr. Coffee machine a few weeks ago ... started to fail after 4 days .... took it back and got a high end machine.
The crap coming out of China is just pure junk, and even at up front cost savings, I'll bet you that it will still end up being more expensive after you figure replacement of it when it breaks.
A vast number of these so called transnational corporations began life as a US company, making their name and reputation for quality by the ingenuity and skill of American workers, and became such large corporations because of it. They got greedy ... working with our politicians .. participated in the "Globalization" movement, which allowed them to take their manufacturing operations overseas to take advantage of the slave labor markets in other countries. They, along with our elected leaders sold us a bill of goods, when the reality was a collective slitting of our throats, for which we received no short or long term benefit ... just false promises. The fact that this globalist agenda was carefully implemented slowly over decades made it much easier to accomplish.
The other side of the coin is also a disaster, in that these poor unfortunate slave laborers are also worse off, so that makes this both an economic issue as well as a moral one too.
Furthermore, these corporations are paying no taxes ... so they literally are killing the country from several perspectives, and that's what needs to change.
The solution is simple .... do what they claim other countries were doing that prevented them from selling goods in their markets .... tell these corporations ... if you want to sell it here, make it here. If you choose to have your Headquarters in NY, or Chicago, or anywhere else in the United States, you will build your product here. If not ... get out. Pack your things and move your fancy High Rise office building to Indonesia, or Pakistan, and deal with the instability in those nations ... you no longer deserve the comforts provided by the country and the people you choose to harm economically.
As for countries like China ... simple. We're going to impose tariffs ... stiff tariffs until our trade becomes balanced. Worried about that Trillion US Dollars you are holding in reserve? No problem. We'll accept cash for our products .... just start buying more stuff from us ... once this huge trade imbalance in cured, we can back off the tariffs. Right now, as it stands ... we have nothing to lose in a trade war with China ... the deficit is so large, they are the one's that can't afford a trade war.
As for prices ... prices are set by the market ... we'll buy it if we think the price is fair ... and if we don't think so, we don't buy until the price becomes fair. There is no need for "sucking it up".
We need sane economics ... not this insanity we have now. And it really isn't about the American public ... it's about rampant corruption between Government and it's Corporate masters. The public just needs to be more accurately informed.
It's far more simple .... the fact is, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have "equal" trade between a country of 300+ Million who's decent living standard exceeds exponentially the living standards of a third world nation with 1/10th of the population to which you might enter into a trade agreement with. The people are poor ...if they even are employed, their wages barely stretch to allow survival ..... they have no money to buy your products, so how can anyone expect to have balanced trade? It's impossible, and it is painfully obvious and very elementary.
I know you mean well, and I often agree with things you say ... but in this instance, you're way off the mark.
The American people did not create this problem, therefore "sucking it up" is not the issue, because those Levis cost just as much being made in Indonesia (paying child slaves $1 a day) as they did when they were sewn by an American adult seamstress being paid $14/hr. The only difference is that the American made version probably lasted longer, and Levi corp is now able to pocket a whole lot more profits that go into the hands of the few, at the expense of the many.
Even a simple can opener that might cost $5 which is made in China is a piece of crap ... we've bought two of them, and threw both away because they just didn't work well ... we bought a German made one for $15 and well probably use it till we die. At the end of the day, the more expensive product generally turns out to be much more cost effective in the long run, and saves money.
This holds true for just about everything anymore ... even major appliances .... most of the average to mid range priced products are cheap imitations of the truly high quality products that used to be made in the USA .... we had a 3 year old fridge that started acting up .... those things used to outlive their owners. Bought a Mr. Coffee machine a few weeks ago ... started to fail after 4 days .... took it back and got a high end machine.
The crap coming out of China is just pure junk, and even at up front cost savings, I'll bet you that it will still end up being more expensive after you figure replacement of it when it breaks.
A vast number of these so called transnational corporations began life as a US company, making their name and reputation for quality by the ingenuity and skill of American workers, and became such large corporations because of it. They got greedy ... working with our politicians .. participated in the "Globalization" movement, which allowed them to take their manufacturing operations overseas to take advantage of the slave labor markets in other countries. They, along with our elected leaders sold us a bill of goods, when the reality was a collective slitting of our throats, for which we received no short or long term benefit ... just false promises. The fact that this globalist agenda was carefully implemented slowly over decades made it much easier to accomplish.
The other side of the coin is also a disaster, in that these poor unfortunate slave laborers are also worse off, so that makes this both an economic issue as well as a moral one too.
Furthermore, these corporations are paying no taxes ... so they literally are killing the country from several perspectives, and that's what needs to change.
The solution is simple .... do what they claim other countries were doing that prevented them from selling goods in their markets .... tell these corporations ... if you want to sell it here, make it here. If you choose to have your Headquarters in NY, or Chicago, or anywhere else in the United States, you will build your product here. If not ... get out. Pack your things and move your fancy High Rise office building to Indonesia, or Pakistan, and deal with the instability in those nations ... you no longer deserve the comforts provided by the country and the people you choose to harm economically.
As for countries like China ... simple. We're going to impose tariffs ... stiff tariffs until our trade becomes balanced. Worried about that Trillion US Dollars you are holding in reserve? No problem. We'll accept cash for our products .... just start buying more stuff from us ... once this huge trade imbalance in cured, we can back off the tariffs. Right now, as it stands ... we have nothing to lose in a trade war with China ... the deficit is so large, they are the one's that can't afford a trade war.
As for prices ... prices are set by the market ... we'll buy it if we think the price is fair ... and if we don't think so, we don't buy until the price becomes fair. There is no need for "sucking it up".
We need sane economics ... not this insanity we have now. And it really isn't about the American public ... it's about rampant corruption between Government and it's Corporate masters. The public just needs to be more accurately informed.
At the end of the day it is about the American public because we elected the people into office who were easily corrupted and purchased. We allowed the oligarchy to rise because of our apathy because we were asleep, we couldn't be bothered because we were too comfortable to pay attention to the responsibility that is required to maintain liberty.
Cheering for the football team or NASCAR driver, we were too busy enjoying the economic boom of the 80s to realize what NAFTA was doing not only to our own country but to Mexico as well and how that helped create the environment for drug cartels to florish and for it along with illegal immigration to destabilize our Southern border.
I agree that it is a moral problem as well as an economic one. Through NAFTA and the subsidizing of corn we helped destroy Mexico's traditional culture, thousands of years of family farming of ancient crops, and the unintended consequences (or intended by the powers that be) was the flight north by illegal immigrants. And now, it repeats itself in another form (chld labor, slave wages, toxic pollution sans regulation) be it in China, Indonesia, or elsewhere. NIMBY rules our trade policy.
Our population has been largely too dumbed down or become to greatly in debted to care to be informed. I have to wonder if even 1% really pays attention to anything that happens if it does not affect them directly. Our population was more informed about world events when they listended to a short wave radio for entertainment than they are today (in general).
The high oil price is further compressing incentives to offshore due to higher transportation costs.
Thes higher prices effect transportation costs at home too and how much effect is this going to have on high priced goods? Shipping a bunch of stuffed animals here may become unfeasible but if you're shipping a boat load of ipads the transportation costs are minimal percentage in the cost of the product.
No matter how often a lie is repeated, it is still a lie.
Speculators are not married to the long side and are just as likely to sell short as to buy long, depending on market factors.
At this point in time, an important market factor is the uncertainty over the availability of supply that could be disrupted should the Iranian situation turn more volatile.
In theory you're correct but in practice it doesn't work that way. participants pile into trades with momentum .Especially when that momentum is also supported by a powerful government such as the US.
Certainly the price of gasoline and heating oil and other distillates that would yield a price of crude oil at $50 vs $100 a barrel would make a significant difference in economic output and would be a major job creator across all industries.
Why would this be?
If I own a business and demand is flat, why does it matter whether my input costs are somewhat lower? You can argue that lower input costs can lead to lower pricing which would increase demand. However, the American consumer is exhausted and lower prices will not lead to measurably more spending.
Quote:
You have no idea what you're talking about ... absolutely incoherent nonsense.
Higher energy costs negatively affect every sector of the economy, across the board, with the exception of the petroleum industry. Your theory of a crashing dollar and higher transportation costs leading to a return of manufacturing is absurd. A heck of a lot of off shoring results in huge savings in labor costs which account for roughly 25% of ALL manufacturing costs. Furthermore, many transnationals have opened manufacturing facilities in the countries that they intend to sell those products ... so they net two benefits ... cheaper labor and lower transportation costs.
So how on God's green earth do you come up with an idea that INCREASED TRANSPORTATION COSTS coupled with increased labor would encourage a return of that manufacturing here in the US?
The only thing that will cause manufacturing to return here is to reverse all of the policies that facilitated that manufacturing exodus in the first place.
The repeal of these dastardly trade agreements like NAFTA, GATT, etc., and the imposition of trade tariffs and tax incentives for US based corporations to return manufacturing here.
In other words, government and corporations would have to operate under the rule of law again, which is unlikely to happen unless they have 20 or 30 Million pitch forks stabbing them in their corrupt arses.
Buddy.
No one is going to reverse anything. The rest of the world is not going to kiss your ass just so you or other Americans can have per capita PPP 8x or 10x that of any other nation.
I'd love for NAFTA, GATT, etc. to be reversed but that's not going to happen. The genie is out of the bottle.
Multinational Corps are deriving ever increasing revenues from outside of the US and this trend will only continue. When Multinationals derive 75% or more revenue from outside of the US, what will the argument be then?
We need to create capital formation in the US and not just yell against "free trade" (which isn't so free but since when has humanity been fair?).
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