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Old 02-19-2012, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,009,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Start a thread on the Ed forum.
I think thats a political question, not just an educational one.

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Old 02-19-2012, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,889 posts, read 102,319,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay View Post
The CPS system is almost universally bad and the reputation is well deserved outside of some very good magnets. UofC Lab School is probably one of the most expensive and ranges from $21-24K/year. To be fair, they give a 50% discount for employees (I think MO worked at UofC). So they would have "only" been paying tuition for one child if she was an employee at the time, and I'm not certain she was or wasn't. And yea, last year was the first year in over 2 decades that schools were closed due to snow, but it was the second worst snowfall in Chicago history.
Barack Obama worked for the U of C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
I think thats a political question, not just an educational one.

I post on both fora, and threads are much more rational over on ed.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,225,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
So taking money out of the school and giving it to the parent huh. I am agog to learn how exactly does that not rob the school? I am also curious to know how it would be financially feasible to give every possible enrollee in a public school a voucher that is equal to the per-pupil cost since not all possible enrollees actually are enrolled in public school.

Pell Grants are different since every college I know of charges tuition. If public universities and community colleges were free to everyone who signed up then yes I would oppose the Pell Grant system.
Under vouchers, schools would have to charge tuition just as colleges do. That's the whole idea. Parents get a voucher, and use it to pay the tuition at whatever school they choose to use.

There are different versions proposed, but usually the public schools are left in place. All vouchers (as typically proposed) really do is eliminate the double taxation effect for parents who choose private schools. As it is, those parents have to continue supporting the public schools via property taxes, plus the private school thru tuition. The vouchers only 'rob' the public schools to the extent that they are unable to retain their student base after parents have a choice.

What's wrong with giving parents a choice, if the public schools are failing their children? Anyway the public schools would have an inherent head start, but a little competition is good for us all. It could end up as the best thing that ever happened to the public schools.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:03 PM
 
Location: NC
10,005 posts, read 8,997,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Under vouchers, schools would have to charge tuition just as colleges do. That's the whole idea. Parents get a voucher, and use it to pay the tuition at whatever school they choose to use.

There are different versions proposed, but usually the public schools are left in place. The vouchers only 'rob' the public schools to the extent that they are unable to retain their student base after parents have a choice.

What's wrong with giving parents a choice, if the public schools are failing their children? Anyway the public schools would have an inherent head start, but a little competition is good for us all. It could end up as the best thing that ever happened to the public schools.
So like I said it basically destroys public schools since you are making them all privatize and charge tuition.

As to whats wrong with it it will eventually become so expensive that the vouchers will be cut and the poor are by and large forced back into the worst schools, if their voucher covers any school at all, and those schools will have even less funding.

Let me put it this way there is a reason vouchers were voted down by a 62%-38% margin in Utah and an even large margin in California.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
So like I said it basically destroys public schools since you are making them all privatize and charge tuition.
It only destroys public schools to the extent that they are unwilling to compete and offer an education that meets the needs of students.

Quote:
As to whats wrong with it it will eventually become so expensive that the vouchers will be cut and the poor are by and large forced back into the worst schools, if their voucher covers any school at all, and those schools will have even less funding.
What is the mechanism by which 'it will eventually become so expensive?' Competition invariably reduces cost. Just look at the computer industry, or the running shoe industry. And what is the mechanism by which the poor will be 'forced back into the worst schools.' (btw did you just admit there that that is the situation now, thereby negating your argument?) In essence, you're just not making any sense with your arguments.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,889 posts, read 102,319,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
It only destroys public schools to the extent that they are unwilling to compete and offer an education that meets the needs of students.



What is the mechanism by which 'it will eventually become so expensive?' Competition invariably reduces cost. Just look at the computer industry, or the running shoe industry. And what is the mechanism by which the poor will be 'forced back into the worst schools.' (btw did you just admit there that that is the situation now, thereby negating your argument?) In essence, you're just not making any sense with your arguments.

Let me put it this way there is a reason vouchers were voted down by a 62%-38% margin in Utah and an even large margin in California.
"Competition invariably reduces cost."

Education is not manufacturing or sales. And we all know that too much competition just kills them all.

I can tell you vouchers were not voted down in Utah (I didn't know they were actually) b/c of undue influence of the teacher's unions. Utah is not a big union state. Their Mormon population probably doesn't want tax money being spent on Fundamentalist Christian and Catholic schools.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,225,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
"Competition invariably reduces cost."

Education is not manufacturing or sales. And we all know that too much competition just kills them all.

I can tell you vouchers were not voted down in Utah (I didn't know they were actually) b/c of undue influence of the teacher's unions. Utah is not a big union state. Their Mormon population probably doesn't want tax money being spent on Fundamentalist Christian and Catholic schools.
Can you give an example of where 'too much competition' killed 'them all?' I don't get that. I am a runner, and it is universally accepted that you can never reach your peak without competition. The person who runs by himself in the park will never be able to run as fast as she would if she entered a race or two.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Marion, IA
2,796 posts, read 5,478,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflight View Post
President

Why does Obama hate choice? And why does he send his children to private school?
Two words: Campaign Money. That's all there is to it.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,889 posts, read 102,319,187 times
Reputation: 32951
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Can you give an example of where 'too much competition' killed 'them all?' I don't get that. I am a runner, and it is universally accepted that you can never reach your peak without competition. The person who runs by himself in the park will never be able to run as fast as she would if she entered a race or two.
Certainly! Right from my own little childhood hometown, pop. ~800. There was one little conveninece store. Someone else opened another one, and they both went under. Just recently (last week I think) it was announced that three brewpubs are going to open in my community of 18,000. DH and I both said separately that we thin that is probably at least two too many. They may all three never make it. Safeway just closed a store in our town, apparently there were too many grocery stores here for them all to make a profit. There are many examples.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Marion, IA
2,796 posts, read 5,478,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Certainly! Right from my own little childhood hometown, pop. ~800. There was one little conveninece store. Someone else opened another one, and they both went under. Just recently (last week I think) it was announced that three brewpubs are going to open in my community of 18,000. DH and I both said separately that we thin that is probably at least two too many. They may all three never make it. Safeway just closed a store in our town, apparently there were too many grocery stores here for them all to make a profit. There are many examples.
Nice try with the imagery. Too bad facts don't ever back up your reasoning.
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