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View Poll Results: Should parents be able to circumcise their son?
Yes 206 75.74%
No 66 24.26%
Voters: 272. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-21-2012, 05:50 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,238,108 times
Reputation: 2618

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnexpectedError View Post
Would cutting off the tip of your children's fingers reduce the spread of STIs and HIV while still allowing them to use those particular appendages for their intended purposes?
Critical thinking! That should be illegal too!
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,059,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
How far does the "do as you like with your own children" extend? Just to foreskin? How about a boys nipples - can you cut them off if you like? How about a girls clitoris - not it a barbaric way like done in much of Africa, but by a surgeon in a hospital under anesthesia? How about laser hair removal on your infant so that he or she is entirely bald for life?
Is it medically beneficial at all? There is a cleanliness factor involved with the foreskin, and a religious one. I don't know of a religion that says "cut your childs nipples off", and if there were, I don't know of a good medical reason to do so.
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:52 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 11,164,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
From what I can tell, then, you believe in absolute personal autonomy for everyone, except when you don't.

I just can't make any sense of that.

Absolute personal autonomy doesn't exist for anyone, much less for children. Even you admit exceptions for children in case of medical necessity.

But if you make this exception, I ask you what you asked me: where does it stop? Why this arbitrary line between medical necessity and marginal but significant health benefits? Who gets to draw this line for whom?

Women outlive men by ten years; if my son were a girl, he would live longer; therefore I can impose a sex-change (excuse me, "gender reassignment") on him. Why not? Give me an intelligible code of morality that stops me from doing this.



I didn't need God to tell me that female circumcision is mutilation and male circumcision is not. But for confused Christians, such as those posting here, it might help to know what God thinks about it. As for you, if you don't accept what common sense tells most people or what the God of history has recorded, then I don't have an argument for you. That's the burden of atheism, I guess. You've got to make up your own rules.
I don't know what to say other than to reread my posts. I've never argued for absolute personal autonomy for everybody, including children. I feel like I've laid down some very reasonable, well grounded, objective criteria.

Your standards of acceptable and unacceptable in the realm of cutting off body parts seems arbitrary to me.

If I have the right to cut of my son's foreskin for aesthetic reasons, why can't I cut off my son's nipples for aesthetic reason, or have laser hair removal done on my daughter's scalp for aesthetic reasons?
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:55 PM
 
26,640 posts, read 17,312,632 times
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I have not searched thru this entire thread, but I have to wonder if any circumcised guys that are on here are resentful or miserable with their member???? Are the only ones griping, the ones that have there foreskins intact? If that is the case, what is your problem? These circumcised guys have had their foreskin removed, not their tongues, so why are you others freaking out? Did it ever occur to you that these guys like the way their genitals look and feel?
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:03 PM
 
771 posts, read 861,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnexpectedError View Post
Would cutting off the tip of your children's fingers reduce the spread of STIs and HIV while still allowing them to use those particular appendages for their intended purposes?
The data on that i have seen is not definitive. Also common sense reduces stds and infection as well. Get tested before you begin having sex with someone else and clean your penis thoroughly.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:04 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,238,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
If I have the right to cut of my son's foreskin for aesthetic reasons, why can't I cut off my son's nipples for aesthetic reason, or have laser hair removal done on my daughter's scalp for aesthetic reasons?
I'll agree with you that it's highly objectionable for parents to do this to their children for aesthetic reasons. But just how big a fraction of parents who get their sons circumsized do you honestly think this applies to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sickofnyc View Post
I have not searched thru this entire thread, but I have to wonder if any circumcised guys that are on here are resentful or miserable with their member???? Are the only ones griping, the ones that have there foreskins intact? If that is the case, what is your problem? These circumcised guys have had their foreskin removed, not their tongues, so why are you others freaking out? Did it ever occur to you that these guys like the way their genitals look and feel?
I'm quite happy with mine, and I PROBABLY would have been just as happy being uncircumcised (assuming I never developed phimosis, paraphimosis, balanoposthitis, etc.) But that's the question I've been asking as well: Just how believable is the myth that any substantial portion of men who were circumcised as infants resent their parents or are otherwise unhappy with it? Probably as believable as the myth that circumcision is altogether permanent
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:06 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 11,164,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Yeah, no one here's trying to circumcise you. If that IS happening, I urge you to call the police, not take it out on US (though it would explain your passion for the subject!)

So, you are REALLY anti-one person choosing to circumsize their baby. But why? Because they have no right to choose something like this for someone else? Does that mean I have to wait until my son's 18 to move us to Colorado, because this is probably going to affect him much more than a circumcision could...
Yes. That's what I'm REALLY for. I don't believe anybody has the right to cut off another man's healthy foreskin - or any other healthy part of his body - except for that man himself. I believe every human being, regardless of his age, has a fundamental right to control the state of his body's physical intactness. Until a child reaches a mature age, it's his parents responsibility and duty to protect and preserve his rights - including this one - not to willfully violate them.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:06 PM
 
3,517 posts, read 5,668,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeman0 View Post
The data on that i have seen is not definitive. Also common sense reduces stds and infection as well. Get tested before you begin having sex with someone else and clean your penis thoroughly.
I've asked several doctors and they all agree that the potential health benefits outweigh the risk of turning into someone who whines on anonymous message boards about how they miss their foreskin.

If common sense were reliable, STIs would have been completely eliminated from the face of the earth long ago. Until it really kicks in, I will continue to support male circumcision in infancy.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:07 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 11,164,784 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I'll agree with you that it's highly objectionable for parents to do this to their children for aesthetic reasons. But just how big a fraction of parents who get their sons circumsized do you honestly think this applies to?
Most. Also, if it's objectionable for aesthetic reasons, do you also find it objectionable for religious reasons?
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Metro DC area
4,541 posts, read 3,655,321 times
Reputation: 1286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndsong71 View Post
There is so much more to it than these simple little things.. take a look at this:
Science-Based Medicine » The case for neonatal circumcision

or this
Doctors make the case for circumcision | BabyCenter

hmmm... I've asked for links to reputable sources on the case against it, and still have yet to see anyone with some back up to their statements. Can you provide anything that says that this information is incorrect like you claim?
Circumcision rates in other countries (HIV rates based on 2009 numbers):
Circumcision is relatively rare in:
the UK-the HIV rate is 0.2%
Spain- the HIV rate is 0.4%
Finland (0.006%); the HIV rate is 0.1%
Denmark (less than 2%); the HIV rate is 0.2%


If circumcision makes one vulnerable to HIV infection, why do these countries have lower rates of infection than countries where circumcision is prelavent (countries in Africa, the US, etc)?

Re: UTIs. More than 50% of women will get UTIs . Of these, 30-40% will have reoccurences. What should we cut off of women to prevent this?

From the AAP:
Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndsong71 View Post
Interesting also, that it's more important for you to allow your son to make the decsion for himself on something so simple and non-lethal, but i wonder, do you feel that parents should allow their girls to make their own choice on gettin gthe HPV vaccine? Which is MUCH more deadly than a circumcsion, and a circumcision actually helps to prevent more of the HPV virus than the vaccine does!
My two older daughters (12 & 16) made their own choice about getting the HPV vaccination. They were both older and we had a discussion about it. I did not arbitrarily do this when they were newborns.

The argument that circumcising prevents and/or lessens the likelihood of certain diseases are miniscule at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndsong71 View Post
Because it has to do with his health before he's old enough to make that decision... AND the tatoo, until he is of age, is still ultimately MY decision. Getting a tatoo or not is not going to have the potential to harm him, but not getting circumcised can, long before he's old enough to make that decision for himself.
Newsflash: You can get both HIV and Hepatitis from a tattoo.
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