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I wholly disagree. It's not permanence. You might have been "stuck" with it for a long time (18 years), but it's not permanent. Why? - becaue it can be changed. The ability to choose = impermanence. That's definitional.
I don't know about all that (quite frankly I have no idea what you're saying in that last paragraph). Really, my argument is pretty darn simple:
My body, my penis, my foreskin, my choice whether to cut it off or not.
or in general:
My body, my body part, my choice whether to cut it off or not.
When the body part is in no way diseased (certainly if a circumcision is medically needed for your child, cut that foreskin off right away), I just cannot find any justification whatsoever for:
His body, his penis, his foreskin, but it's my decision to discard it.
or in general:
His body, his body part, but my choice whether to cut it off or not.
Where does it stop? Earlier you made the argument it stops where God says it does (that's why you argued circumcision is not mutilation but cutting off various other body parts is). I don't believe in God. That argument holds zero weight with me.
And those are valid reasons not to have your son circumcised. I hope no one would try and force you to do so. However, you have to acknowledge that there are valid and useful reasons for circumcision. From the medical, as I mentioned regarding the spread of disease and others have mentioned the hygiene benefits, to the superfluous like physical aesthetic.
For many people, these pros outweigh the cons. They don't for you and that's fine, but do not attempt to diminish the rights of others based on your personal beliefs. Parents do all sorts of irreversible procedures to their children without their consent because it's in their best interest. They remove large birthmarks or moles, they give vaccinations, they put their children's teeth in braces. None are strictly necessary, but all have their benefits.
And those are valid reasons not to have your son circumcised. I hope no one would try and force you to do so. However, you have to acknowledge that there are valid and useful reasons for circumcision. From the medical, as I mentioned regarding the spread of disease and others have mentioned the hygiene benefits, to the superfluous like physical aesthetic.
For many people, these pros outweigh the cons. They don't for you and that's fine, but do not attempt to diminish the rights of others based on your personal beliefs. Parents do all sorts of irreversible procedures to their children without their consent because it's in their best interest. They remove large birthmarks or moles, they give vaccinations, they put their children's teeth in braces. None are strictly necessary, but all have their benefits.
I'm not anti-circumcision as a bunch of posters on here have labeled me. I'm anti-another person circumcising me. If a man (or even a mature minor - 15, 16, or 17 year old) wishes to cut off his foreskin for any reason whatsoever - hygiene, aesthetics, any health reason including reducing risk of STD contraction, to please his wife - then great for him. I'll drive him to and from the appointment if he wants.
I'm not anti-circumcision as a bunch of posters on here have labeled me. I'm anti-another person circumcising me. If a man (or even a mature minor - 15, 16, or 17 year old) wishes to cut off his foreskin for any reason whatsoever - hygiene, aesthetics, any health reason including reducing risk of STD contraction, to please his wife - then great for him. I'll drive him to and from the appointment if he wants.
The problem with that is, as I mentioned, recovery time and pain as well as unnecessary anxiety surrounding it. I think most circumcised men are happy that they are but many would be reluctant to get the procedure if they woke up tomorrow with foreskin that had grown back. If we wait and leave the decision to adulthood, you most likely will not get the societal health benefits.
Do you have an issue with the other childhood alterations I mentioned? Kids don't have a say in any of those, either.
From what I can tell, then, you believe in absolute personal autonomy for everyone, except when you don't.
I just can't make any sense of that.
Absolute personal autonomy doesn't exist for anyone, much less for children. Even you admit exceptions for children in case of medical necessity.
But if you make this exception, I ask you what you asked me: where does it stop? Why this arbitrary line between medical necessity and marginal but significant health benefits? Who gets to draw this line for whom?
Women outlive men by ten years; if my son were a girl, he would live longer; therefore I can impose a sex-change (excuse me, "gender reassignment") on him. Why not? Give me an intelligible code of morality that stops me from doing this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33
Where does it stop? Earlier you made the argument it stops where God says it does (that's why you argued circumcision is not mutilation but cutting off various other body parts is). I don't believe in God. That argument holds zero weight with me.
I didn't need God to tell me that female circumcision is mutilation and male circumcision is not. But for confused Christians, such as those posting here, it might help to know what God thinks about it. As for you, if you don't accept what common sense tells most people or what the God of history has recorded, then I don't have an argument for you. That's the burden of atheism, I guess. You've got to make up your own rules.
I'm not anti-circumcision as a bunch of posters on here have labeled me. I'm anti-another person circumcising me. If a man (or even a mature minor - 15, 16, or 17 year old) wishes to cut off his foreskin for any reason whatsoever - hygiene, aesthetics, any health reason including reducing risk of STD contraction, to please his wife - then great for him. I'll drive him to and from the appointment if he wants.
Yeah, no one here's trying to circumcise you. If that IS happening, I urge you to call the police, not take it out on US (though it would explain your passion for the subject!)
So, you are REALLY anti-one person choosing to circumsize their baby. But why? Because they have no right to choose something like this for someone else? Does that mean I have to wait until my son's 18 to move us to Colorado, because this is probably going to affect him much more than a circumcision could...
Yeah, no one here's trying to circumcise you. If that IS happening, I urge you to call the police, not take it out on US (though it would explain your passion for the subject!)
So, you are REALLY anti-one person choosing to circumsize their baby. But why? Because they have no right to choose something like this for someone else? Does that mean I have to wait until my son's 18 to move us to Colorado, because this is probably going to affect him much more than a circumcision could...
When he's 18 he can leave Colorado but he can't grow back a foreskin.
No. It should be illegal, when the kid turns 18 let him choose.
If my religion says i have to cut off the tip of my children's fingers
would you let me?
Only an adult should have control of what is done to their body that is not medically necessary.
Would cutting off the tip of your children's fingers reduce the spread of STIs and HIV while still allowing them to use those particular appendages for their intended purposes?
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