Mormon Church Posthumously Baptizes Anne Frank (billion, world, news, town)
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I understand the principles behind baptism by proxy, and that does not make them any more acceptable to me. The big issue for me is the lack of respect for the faith of others. The arrogant assumption that one person's belief is more "right" than anothers is highly objectionable. Whether the baptism is accepted or rejected is neither here nor there in my view of the practice, it's the sense of entitlement to do it in the first place, particularly knowing that a person has differing, and firmly held beliefs is offensive.
I'd LMAO if a bunch of scientologists went through LDS cemeteries doing ceremonies to allow the dead LDS members to convert to scientology....or other religions.
Of course they'd be arrested and driven off by screaming mobs for the affront.
Do I have it right? Mormons are baptized for people who have already died to give those deceased people a chance to become Mormon. From a mormon point of view, this is more than a kindness - it's a great thing.
But to do this for Holocaust victims is offensive. They suffered for being Jewish (although not all were Jewish), so to offer them another religion, even if you sincerely believe there's isn't the "right" one, is wrong.
So are Mormons being respectful to Holocaust victims, or are they excluding them from whatever eternal benefits Mormons expect? Are the Holocaust victims being honored or deprived?
Actually, it's a little bit more involved than that, but in a nutshell, yes, if the person accepts the baptism he gets to leave Hell and go to Heaven. (Please understand that my answer is a gross oversimplification of what our belief actually is, but you're on the right track in your assumption.)
It sounds like you understand the rationale behind the practice then.
Don't get me wrong. I still think it's cooky and I have no problem mocking it by posting clips like I did above.
Honestly, I see it as completely benign free speech that gives me a good chuckle. I don't see it as having any effect on me whatsoever, so despite Cunucu Beach's accusations, I'm in no way outraged or offended by it - although I can understand why a devoutly religious non-Mormon might be offended and outraged by it.
I'm going to try to draw just one analogy that might help some of you to understand how we look at this practice. (Keep in mind that this is just an analogy. No analogy is perfect.)
Let's say I was crazy about Taylor Swift and you really didn't care for country music at all. I knew that she was coming to town to do a concert. When I bought my ticket, I bought an extra one for you (without you asking me to). I then mailed it to you and told you that I really thought you might want to reconsider and go to the concert. After all, I'd already bought the ticket. You would have a choice. You could either decide to use the ticket and go to the concert or toss it in the garbage, thinking, "Katzpur knows I don't like country music. She just wasted a lot of money on something she should know I wouldn't want."
That's how we see proxy baptism. It's an ordinance (i.e. sacrament) we perform for someone who has died, believing that if a person can change religions during his mortal life, he can do the same during the period of time between his death and his resurrection. The baptism itself accomplishes nothing -- just as my purchase of an expensive concert ticket and the time it took me to mail it accomplished nothing. If the deceased person accepts the baptism, a true conversion has taken place. If he doesn't, it's just like your throwing the concert ticket in the trash.
We don't have any way of knowing who accepts these proxy baptisms and who doesn't, and we do not increase our membership numbers by the proxy baptisms we do.
Interesting, thank you for the education.
Honestly it seems like people these days go out of their way to be insensed or offended. I do not see this as disrespectful in any way; rather, I see this as no different than praying for a stranger or someone you may know is not a person of faith or of a differing faith. It apears on the surface to be an offering of acceptance based in faith which in reality changes nothing about the person to whom it is directed unless it is accepted in faith.
Religion is all just made up by man anyway, so on the surface I really don't care. That being said I do respect the rights of others to worship what ever Diety they want: whether that be God, Allah, Satan, Ghozer or Mickey Mouse it doesn't matter. This is borderline creepy though.
I'm going to try to draw just one analogy that might help some of you to understand how we look at this practice. (Keep in mind that this is just an analogy. No analogy is perfect.)
Let's say I was crazy about Taylor Swift and you really didn't care for country music at all. I knew that she was coming to town to do a concert. When I bought my ticket, I bought an extra one for you (without you asking me to). I then mailed it to you and told you that I really thought you might want to reconsider and go to the concert. After all, I'd already bought the ticket. You would have a choice. You could either decide to use the ticket and go to the concert or toss it in the garbage, thinking, "Katzpur knows I don't like country music. She just wasted a lot of money on something she should know I wouldn't want."
That's how we see proxy baptism. It's an ordinance (i.e. sacrament) we perform for someone who has died, believing that if a person can change religions during his mortal life, he can do the same during the period of time between his death and his resurrection. The baptism itself accomplishes nothing -- just as my purchase of an expensive concert ticket and the time it took me to mail it accomplished nothing. If the deceased person accepts the baptism, a true conversion has taken place. I, her father did not have the f he doesn't, it's just like your throwing the concert ticket in the trash.
We don't have any way of knowing who accepts these proxy baptisms and who doesn't, and we do not increase our membership numbers by the proxy baptisms we do.
You have been very polite and reasonable while discussing this issue, but I have to say this...
To condone this or explain it does nothing to take away from the hypocrisy of the practice. Although it seemingly does no harm to the deceased, it does do harm to the survivors and people of the same faith of the deceased. In the Hebrew faith there are very deliberate and customary rituals for the dead. They insure the soul (for people that believe) the very same respect that any other religion can lay claim to when honoring and laying their dead to rest. Jesus has no place in a Hebrew's passing. In fact, according to orthodox Jewish custom, his name is not ever spoken. The reasons are easy to google if one cares to undertand why...so...to use the name of a person, in this case Anne Frank, who was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died a Jew and because she was Jew, is self-rightgeous and arrogant.
Unfortunately, her father did not have the opportunity to bury her in the Hebrew custom physically, but I'm sure he sat Shiva, said Kaddish and did whatever Anne's family's faith dictated. These Mormons trespassed and disregarded the faith that is the personal and sacred belonging of another individual. No excuses are acceptable.
Then why the vast genealogical records? Most non-Mormons (like me) think you do this to baptize the dead going back generations. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm willing to learn.
If it's true I find it highly offensive. What gives the Mormon church the right to do this?
I actually thank the LDS for this quaint belief, LDS geneological research is one reason I know my family tree goiung back to 14th century England. They have every right to do this and and you too can use their database which now has several billion files going back centuries.
Maybe we can have gay guys engage in intercourse over LDS graves in the future to give them the opportunity to condone it *just in case* they were wrong.
Now sure, there are some that will find it offensive but they are dead, it's no big deal they can just choose to ignore it otherwise.
Oh, we could go on all day like this but will likely just hear the same tired....
"Well it's ok because our religion is right and yours is wrong" duh!
Must be nice to go through life being knowing you are completely right and that anyone offended by your actions are *confused* and of course anyone offending you needs to be stopped!
Don't worry though, the church I grew up in (which I don't associate with) absolutely considers the LDS a cult that is going to hell. I'm sure they are praying for your lost souls and trying to save you too....but thankfully, you are right. always.
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