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I have a lot of sympathy for this position. However, I also think it's within the proper province of government to set up zoning laws to protect an area. I don't think you believe, for example, that just because you own the property, you could tear it down and build a strip club in the middle of a residential area. So, if you accept the premise that zoning is beneficial for a variety of reasons, the question then becomes when does zoning get out of hand? Frankly, I find nothing wrong with a city, state or national government trying to preserve historical sites. If there is a beautiful block in downtown Manhattan with brownstones from the 1800s and it brings a certain charm to the neighborhood, I think a city is well within its rights to say "if you want to live here, you have to maintain the structural integrity of the home". You are free to move elsewhere if you choose not to. It does lessen your freedom somewhat but you have many alternatives.
Go to Europe and you won't see McMansions in their downtown squares. They know that there is a cultural and tourist value to preservation but zoning laws are required because capitalism is not sentimental but society is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaw1981
Sorry for the length of this but this is something I have been reading about for a while and something most Americans are asleep at the wheel on. Mel Garbow a Washington land use lawyer said once preservationists "are like butterfly collectors: they don't have any appreciation for butterflies, they just want to have another one for their collection trophy case. You have a small group of politically adroit people who create a kind of city museum by requiring individual owners to make their buildings exhibitioins in this museum." When I originally heard of preservation I thought a few buildings here and there and yes I was in favor of it.
But I am seeing more and more historic districts spread like wildfire around the country where strict regulations are put in place not for the benefit of safety such as a permit to install a new electrical box (to avoid a fire) or to put up a new roof (to avoid it falling on you). Now we are onto how a property is allowed to look. I just find it hard to believe that some Americans are willing to give up more and more of their freedom and stand by silent. My uncle has a 1957 Chevrolet that is valued at over 150,000 dollars. Yet if he wishes to smash the car to pieces he is within his rights to do it.
But when it comes to our castles (our houses) we allow the government and preservationists who do not know their place to dictate aesthetics of our own houses. Some might claim that their neighbors house value effects theirs. My reply to that is that a house is bought to live in and not for a investment. This is in part why we are in the situation we are in. People buying homes as "investments" with the intention to sell them in a few years and make profits even though they could barely afford it.
If someone wishes to put their money in houses as a investment instead of the stock market that is their choice. But don't say your neighbors freedom to do with their house as they wish should be diminished because you made the choice to invest in real estate. I see this getting more and more out of control and some people just sitting back (preservationists call these people "takers" because they just sit back and are easy to win over).
If someone is for preservation they should "preserve" their own house. If they are for preservation and strict laws for a entire neighborhood then buy the whole neighborhood or urge the city to buy it and then you can preserve it. But to somehow say that because you believe a area should be preserved and therefore other homeowners should then be restricted is something out of that of a communist. I am a left leaning man and that is not a term I throw around a lot. The more I learn about the national preservation for historic trust which is funded by the federal government in part, I am seeing more and more they value dictatorship over freedom.
Yes many times right in front of you. You are just so quick to call people ingnorant...you are amazing how you think you are above everyone and are the example I said to justify not having someone like yourself on a board deciding what is approved for property that does not belong to you.
I have a lot of sympathy for this position. However, I also think it's within the proper province of government to set up zoning laws to protect an area. I don't think you believe, for example, that just because you own the property, you could tear it down and build a strip club in the middle of a residential area. So, if you accept the premise that zoning is beneficial for a variety of reasons, the question then becomes when does zoning get out of hand? Frankly, I find nothing wrong with a city, state or national government trying to preserve historical sites. If there is a beautiful block in downtown Manhattan with brownstones from the 1800s and it brings a certain charm to the neighborhood, I think a city is well within its rights to say "if you want to live here, you have to maintain the structural integrity of the home". You are free to move elsewhere if you choose not to. It does lessen your freedom somewhat but you have many alternatives.
Go to Europe and you won't see McMansions in their downtown squares. They know that there is a cultural and tourist value to preservation but zoning laws are required because capitalism is not sentimental but society is.
Yes but this is not Europe and that seems to be something people are forgetting. I can see basic zoning laws. I can even see some HD laws to prevent tear downs. My house sits about a 2 blocks away from a HD and you know what? My house is better looking then most in the HD nearby. Most of them have paint chipping, rotted windows etc.
Now some of you brought up "well don't live there". I don't live in a HD. My house will never get permission from me to be historic. In my city nearly every neighborhood around the midtown and downtown is designated historic. I am on a fringe group of houses that is not. So in order for someone to buy outside of a HD neighborhood they have to buy much much further out and travel longer to work. I am sorry that is not right.
It should have been stated "these are a few historic districts we are creating and the rest we are leaving". Like I said in the OP though this is not the case with preservationists. They want every house they can "save". They think they own the houses and you as a homeowner are just renting.
We are having this very same issue with healthcare in this country. Do gooders who believe that you should be mandated to carry health insurance because it is best for everyone. Well I don't need saving. I don't need to be told to have health insurance and my house is just that...my house. It also does not need saving. It is a house and not a museum.
Yes many times right in front of you. You are just so quick to call people ingnorant...you are amazing how you think you are above everyone and are the example I said to justify not having someone like yourself on a board deciding what is approved for property that does not belong to you.
Ironic how you ignored all the wonderful comments and zeroed in right on me.
BTW, you described me incorrectly on another thread.
My profession is interior design, not preservation.
If you are going to talk about me, do it correctly.
Ironic how you ignored all the wonderful comments and zeroed in right on me.
BTW, you described me incorrectly on another thread.
My profession is interior design, not preservation.
If you are going to talk about me, do it correctly.
You have problems reading. I said that if you were above everyone as you claim you are, you would be a lot further then a interior designer. You are quick to call people ignorant and other terms who think you and other preservationists should focus efforts on their own houses and mind their own business.
OP - Try getting over yourself and your supposed "rights". As you don't live in an Historic District what or what not they choose to do is their business. We all give up some of our "freedom" to live with other humans. That is what civilization is.
BTW - If your neighbors decide to form a HD you will have to live within the new rules. That is what a Representative Democracy is all about. The majority, constrained by law, decides what they want to do and changes the law to allow it.
Liberty-The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life.
I was just having this debate with some preservationist on a different thread on property rights. Some are ok with the government telling them what they can and can not do in every aspect of their lives. The government is happy to gain power and power of individual rights as it makes things for them easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaw1981
You have problems reading. I said that if you were above everyone as you claim you are, you would be a lot further then a interior designer. You are quick to call people ignorant and other terms who think you and other preservationists should focus efforts on their own houses and mind their own business.
No, you said the bolded.
Whats with the dig on interior design?
I make a lot of money doing it.
OP - Try getting over yourself and your supposed "rights". As you don't live in an Historic District what or what not they choose to do is their business. We all give up some of our "freedom" to live with other humans. That is what civilization is.
BTW - If your neighbors decide to form a HD you will have to live within the new rules. That is what a Representative Democracy is all about. The majority, constrained by law, decides what they want to do and changes the law to allow it.
No I don't. I have prop 207 in my state. They can not declare my house historic without my approval.
OP - Try getting over yourself and your supposed "rights". As you don't live in an Historic District what or what not they choose to do is their business. We all give up some of our "freedom" to live with other humans. That is what civilization is.
BTW - If your neighbors decide to form a HD you will have to live within the new rules. That is what a Representative Democracy is all about. The majority, constrained by law, decides what they want to do and changes the law to allow it.
You are the reason prop 207 was done here in Arizona and why I think there will be/and should be pushback. You trample individual property rights. If the city or State tries to make this property historic without my approval I will sue in court and win. Ahhhhh that democracy thing is wonderful right? We were told by our city officals around the State and State preservationists that prop 207 was the most terrible thing there ever could be and still we voted for it over 65%.
No I don't. I have prop 207 in my state. They can not declare my house historic without my approval.
I recall something I learned in school, it is a concept called, "bundle of rights". If I recall correctly the concept ie that an owner only possesses certain rights to a property. Other rights belong to others. No matter how you came to own a piece of land there are other entities that have rights superior to yours. Your deed will list some and some are granted by common law. Where I live I own to the centerline of the public road in front of my home. That ownership does not give me a right to do anything with that road, an easement granted years ago is now part of the land. Read your deed, in the property description everything after, "subject to..." Usually lists the rights you or your predecessors have ceded already.
What I'm saying is you don't have unconditional right to your home now. Just try building an addition closer to the road, better, do that without a permit... You soon find out what you're rights are.
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