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The goals are not an issue but an ability to express those goals is. I’m not entirely 100% sure on what their goals are and I don’t care to know, but their right to express them is guaranteed no matter how I, you, or anyone else feels about it. Even if you feel it is criminal, it is protected unless the clear and present danger exceptions exist. Very similar to pro-marijuana advocates who advise on how to grow or transport pot. They are protected but those who act or commit the act are not. Yes, I know there is a difference between a joint and a young boy, but generally speaking, there is no difference between the freedoms to express those viewpoints. It is the illegal act that doesn’t enjoy the protections. That is what people who are inimical to the ACLU fail to understand.
Comparing apples to oranges. We can discuss the other case because we have a wealth of information and details, now you’re not referring to any specific case where we can discuss the merits of the complaint that brought any ACLU action when requested by a citizen. Also, the clear and present danger is an exception to the Freedom of Speech right. That is completely different than the religious clauses of the first amendment.
However, in general I don’t care about the holidays but I do see a difference when some people or groups try to use the holiday as a ruse to push their religious ideas or agenda onto children who are not their own through government agencies (schools, city government, etc...).
1. "Fire" in a crowded theater...go hustle a little kid. I see an analogy, you don't. So be it.
2. (The previous poster raised the apples and oranges). What religious ideas or agenda is being pushed by Santa Claus? Why is it necessary to eliminate the playing of INSTRUMENTAL Christmas carols? Are we facing a future without the music of Bach, because so many of his works have Christian themes? Are our children to be shielded from the horror of Michelangelo, because he created the Pieta? Are our schools facing a culture stripped of all cultural references to Christianity? Should the St. Louis or Sacramento school districts be forced to change their names, which have obvious Christian referrants?
The ACLU's efforts in this area are absurd and dangerous.
1. "Fire" in a crowded theater...go hustle a little kid. I see an analogy, you don't. So be it.
2. (The previous poster raised the apples and oranges). What religious ideas or agenda is being pushed by Santa Claus? Why is it necessary to eliminate the playing of INSTRUMENTAL Christmas carols? Are we facing a future without the music of Bach, because so many of his works have Christian themes? Are our children to be shielded from the horror of Michelangelo, because he created the Pieta? Are our schools facing a culture stripped of all cultural references to Christianity? Should the St. Louis or Sacramento school districts be forced to change their names, which have obvious Christian referrants?
The ACLU's efforts in this area are absurd and dangerous.
as I've said.. the organization's reason for existing is good.. BUT there are lines.... if you don't like christmas or christmas music.. then don't learn about it or participate.. Santa Claus was actully materialized in america to detract from the whole Jesus thing.. Christmas has every right to exist.. as does any other religious holiday.. if its not a holiday you believe in.. don't participate..
christmas does not exlude anyone last time I checked...some of my family members are Jewish.. and they love christmas.. it can be what it is for that person.. and if you're staunchly against it.. then stay home and don't take part.... I believe the ACLU should stick with protecting rights that are being infringed upon.. NOT hindering others rights in the process.. because then it is no better than what it is opposing....and we as a society have evolved christmas to encompass everyone... if you cannot see that.. then you're probably angry and miserable.. and people of that mentality want everyone else to be miserable with them...
common sense people... common sense..
1. "Fire" in a crowded theater...go hustle a little kid. I see an analogy, you don't. So be it..
Writing about how to yell fire in a crowded theatre (protected) is different from actually yelling fire in a crowded theatre (not protected unless there really is a fire). Writing about how to pick up little boys is different from actually going out to pick up little boys.
Writing about how to yell fire in a crowded theatre (protected) is different from actually yelling fire in a crowded theatre (not protected unless there really is a fire). Writing about how to pick up little boys is different from actually going out to pick up little boys.
Are you unable to see the distinction?
I am. But it is a tortured distinction, and one which ignores the susceptibility of the sick minds at which it is aimed. ("Sick minds" referring to potential felons, not the folks who read your post!)
I see the evil of people being trampled and children being abused. You see a courtroom full of well-fed attorneys wondering what to have for lunch.
Writing about how to yell fire in a crowded theatre (protected) is different from actually yelling fire in a crowded theatre (not protected unless there really is a fire). Writing about how to pick up little boys is different from actually going out to pick up little boys.
Are you unable to see the distinction?
I can see what you're saying.. and i agree that you cannot just randomly find someone that you think is writing how to pick up little boys..
But.. there's a notion that if you're publishing how to do it.. you're fostering the ACTION to take place.. and it kind of goes under the law.. where on "to catch a predator" the men are arrested because they are talking to a minor and show up.. they haven't had any intercourse with a minor.. BUT by showing up.. shows intent to commit the crime.. I'm not saying every case is this though.. some may be expressing their opinion of what they feel.. but those telling others HOW to do it.. is not ok.. not under the law.. fostering an act of such is a crime..
here's an example... I can talk about drug use.. and how I might like getting high or whatever.. and how it makes me feel.. and why I think its ok.. BUT if I go on a website and tell people WHERE to get it.. how to get away with it.. and aid in the transport of it.. thru information... then I have broken the law.. because I am aiding in the exploitation of others....that of course takes looking at the law.. and proving who that person is.. and what level they have aided in it.. and that is what the court is for..but there definetely is a law that is broken.. and if there isn't.. there needs to be
as I've said.. the organization's reason for existing is good.. BUT there are lines.... if you don't like christmas or christmas music.. then don't learn about it or participate.. Santa Claus was actully materialized in america to detract from the whole Jesus thing.. Christmas has every right to exist.. as does any other religious holiday.. if its not a holiday you believe in.. don't participate..
christmas does not exlude anyone last time I checked...some of my family members are Jewish.. and they love christmas.. it can be what it is for that person.. and if you're staunchly against it.. then stay home and don't take part.... I believe the ACLU should stick with protecting rights that are being infringed upon.. NOT hindering others rights in the process.. because then it is no better than what it is opposing....and we as a society have evolved christmas to encompass everyone... if you cannot see that.. then you're probably angry and miserable.. and people of that mentality want everyone else to be miserable with them...
common sense people... common sense..
Good points-reminds me of the debacle we had here a couple of years ago, at our local High School graduation. Two schools were involved, totalling about 1800 students. A large "mega-Church" in the neighborhood (you'd recognize its 'purpose-driven' name if I mentioned it) offered the use of its huge, state-of-the-art auditorium for the event. Ample parking and robust air-conditioning, of course, were part of this generous, no-strings gesture.
All was well until the parents of TWO students took exception, and didn't care to be involved with a "church"--even to the extent of sitting in its very plain-looking auditorium on a weekday. Of course, their "attorney" prevailed (don't know for sure if the ACLU was involved, but I'm sure this is their favorite sort of 'issue'). The other 1798 students' parents, naturally, were not consulted....but of course, they still "benefitted" just the same.
The event was transferred to an outdoor amphitheatre (frequent scene of all sorts of 'gangsta rap' music and other 'family-type' fare), about 4 miles farther away across town. Our parking spot was about 4 blocks from our seat. There was no shade, and the temperature that day was about 102.
Sitting there, soaked with sweat, using my program for a fan, (as was evryone else), it seemed truly miserable, and the 'speeches' seemed to go on forever. But I'm sure ALL of us had one consolation---at LEAST we didn't have to meet on CHURCH property, and for that much, I'm sure, we were grateful.
Thanks, ACLU, for looking out for the "little guy"....
I am. But it is a tortured distinction, and one which ignores the susceptibility of the sick minds at which it is aimed.
I see the evil of people being trampled and children being abused. You see a courtroom full of well-fed attorneys wondering what to have for lunch.
Because it is supposed to ignore the minds of those when it is just “thought” or “feelings” but NOT when the act is committed or in the commision of the act.
I see the same evil when you present a “what if” scenario. However people, no matter how you feel about them, are protected unless they act. I don’t condone the act and the act is punishable. Thoughts and feelings and writing those out, no matter how grotesgue you feel about them, are not criminal.
Because it is supposed to ignore the minds of those when it is just “thought” or “feelings” but NOT when the act is committed or in the commision of the act.
I see the same evil when you present a “what if” scenario. However people, no matter how you feel about them, are protected unless they act. I don’t condone the act and the act is punishable. Thoughts and feelings and writing those out, no matter how grotesgue you feel about them, are not criminal.
Unless they are thoughts about Santa Claus. According to the good people at the ACLU.
I can see what you're saying.. and i agree that you cannot just randomly find someone that you think is writing how to pick up little boys..
But.. there's a notion that if you're publishing how to do it.. you're fostering the ACTION to take place.. and it kind of goes under the law..
Just because you publish something on how to commit an illegal act it doesn’t make you a participant to the act if someone commits it, even if they follow the directions to the letter. You actually have to have a direct connection. Not only that, it is a benefit to law enforcement when people actually publish how to commit illegal acts. It helps in their investigation and when taking actions to prevent crimes. What better way to protect children than by knowing what predator actions are. This is beneficial to law enforcement and parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseguy
where on "to catch a predator" the men are arrested because they are talking to a minor and show up.. they haven't had any intercourse with a minor.. BUT by showing up.. shows intent to commit the crime.. I'm not saying every case is this though.. some may be expressing their opinion of what they feel.. but those telling others HOW to do it.. is not ok.. not under the law.. fostering an act of such is a crime..
Not really a good example as in those cases the people commited a crime due to the intention to solicit or submitting “obscene” materials to a “minor”. So an overt act in futherance of the crime was committed. It isnt that they just read about how to pick up underage people online and didn’t do anything, it was that they acted out. Reading material doesn’t display any intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseguy
I can talk about drug use.. and how I might like getting high or whatever.. and how it makes me feel.. and why I think its ok.. BUT if I go on a website and tell people WHERE to get it.. how to get away with it.. and aid in the transport of it.. thru information... then I have broken the law.. because I am aiding in the exploitation of others....that of course takes looking at the law.. and proving who that person is.. and what level they have aided in it.. and that is what the court is for..but there definetely is a law that is broken.. and if there isn't.. there needs to be
Not illegal if you publish it. Illegal if you attempt or actually get it or transport it. Again, read my other point above, what a boon to law enforcement and concerned citizens if you actually publish this info.
Unless they are thoughts about Santa Claus. According to the good people at the ACLU.
So you're unable to make a point logically connected to what I pointed out?
They are two distinctively different issues. But hey, I'll play along, santa, when used as a ruse by religous groups who need government endorsement for their beliefs because they dont have the strength to believe in it without some sort of government validation should be removed from the public square. Of course you never indicated any specific cases that we could review the merits, only general "that school" responses.
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