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Old 03-25-2012, 12:57 AM
 
4,042 posts, read 3,522,864 times
Reputation: 1968

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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
it is the duty of all soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines to refuse to obey what they think is an illegal order. if they so believe it, then following an illegal order and carrying it out does not relieve themselves of the criminal prosecutions that may occur because of that order.

one of the 1st classes i had when going through basic training taught that.
You are, of course so very correct.

Here is the standard, Enlistment Oath that is taken~


"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


The defense of the Constitution is a much bigger issue in this oath than obeying the order of the president. The Constitution is the law of the land--not something any president says or pens. The president has to obey this document, also.

Obama is busy "Fundamentally Transforming" our nation.

BIG problem~

Our Constitution *IS* our Fundamentals.

 
Old 03-25-2012, 01:23 AM
 
4,734 posts, read 4,318,244 times
Reputation: 3225
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
it is the duty of all soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines to refuse to obey what they think is an illegal order. if they so believe it, then following an illegal order and carrying it out does not relieve themselves of the criminal prosecutions that may occur because of that order.

one of the 1st classes i had when going through basic training taught that.
I agree.

It is also the duty of all soldiers to make sure that the orders they are refusing are worth refusing. Moreover, it is not the duty of soldiers to broadcast their attitude of defiance on the internet, to suggest that other soldiers do the same, and to goad the president and high officials to stop him.

Let's just cut the bullsh*t. My old man was in the military twice, once in WWII and once in Korea. Had any moron had the balls to fire off a letter to the editor telling readers that he wasn't going to follow the unconstitutional orders of Harry Truman or Dwight Eisenhower, that soldier would have an officer's boot so far up his ass he'd be eating leather for lunch. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. So cut the crap.

This guy attends tea party rallies with rooms that are probably half full of birther idiots who deny his C-in-C's eligibility to be president. Let's not pretend this is some sort of innocuous example of free political discourse.
 
Old 03-25-2012, 01:31 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,198 posts, read 22,263,933 times
Reputation: 23827
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Nonsense. American President's have been committing troops to battle without direct, specific Congressional approval for more than a century and, in many cases, without any "imminent danger" to our soil.

What was the imminent danger when the US Navy shelled the city of Tourane (Danang) before our Civil War? Or, when US forces participated in a war against Korean pirates or the Boxer Rebellion or any of a number of occupations in Nicaruagua, the Dominican Republic, Panama or Haiti or, for that matter, Hawaii?
Yup. You forgot Tripoli (the first) and some others. There have been many small and short interventions in other countries during our history as a nation.

Right now, the President is allowed by law to conduct a military operation of 6 week's duration without consent of Congress. A growing conflict can often be stopped in that time frame before a full war breaks out.

Because the seas are sovereign, many start when one country goes against another's ships or seeks to stop naval transport. That's why the Marines were our first military force.
The United States has always been a sea-going nation from the very first. We have always depended on the seas to export our goods, transport our people, and import from other nations.

We have always protected our interests abroad as well, and we will continue to do so. Imminent danger is exactly why a President has that 6 week time frame. Neither the Navy nor the Marine Corps gets too choose where it will be sent or what it will be asked to do. That's part of the deal in accepting a commission or enlisting in the service.

No ifs ands or buts about it.
 
Old 03-25-2012, 01:33 AM
 
4,042 posts, read 3,522,864 times
Reputation: 1968
"Let's just cut the bullsh*t. My old man was in the military twice, once in WWII and once in Korea. Had any moron had the balls to fire off a letter to the editor telling readers that he wasn't going to follow the unconstitutional orders of Harry Truman or Dwight Eisenhower, that soldier would have an officer's boot so far up his ass he'd be eating leather for lunch. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. So cut the crap."

Yeah, let's continue your tone of your post here and cut the crap concerning the Communist-in-Chief! Sheesh, had BO been president in the time you speak of then some of the top brass in the pentagon would have already HANDCUFFED Him, awaiting trial and maybe thrown away the key.

Unlike ever before, we actually HAVE a military force that is faced with the shocking reality that they actually have domestic enemies of our constitution in DC!
Uncharted territory is where we are as a nation, and it's a chaotic mess that's going to get worse before it gets better.
God help us all, and I do mean that sincerely.
 
Old 03-25-2012, 01:35 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
409 posts, read 253,833 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Nonsense. American President's have been committing troops to battle without direct, specific Congressional approval for more than a century and, in many cases, without any "imminent danger" to our soil.

What was the imminent danger when the US Navy shelled the city of Tourane (Danang) before our Civil War? Or, when US forces participated in a war against Korean pirates or the Boxer Rebellion or any of a number of occupations in Nicaruagua, the Dominican Republic, Panama or Haiti or, for that matter, Hawaii?
Were you alive during those conflicts? How do you know what actually happened in regards to was approved and what was not? Those presidents didn't break the law like Obama has.
 
Old 03-25-2012, 01:39 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
8,346 posts, read 7,030,547 times
Reputation: 2874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysee View Post
"Let's just cut the bullsh*t. My old man was in the military twice, once in WWII and once in Korea. Had any moron had the balls to fire off a letter to the editor telling readers that he wasn't going to follow the unconstitutional orders of Harry Truman or Dwight Eisenhower, that soldier would have an officer's boot so far up his ass he'd be eating leather for lunch. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. So cut the crap."

Yeah, let's continue your tone of your post here and cut the crap concerning the Communist-in-Chief! Sheesh, had BO been president in the time you speak of then some of the top brass in the pentagon would have already HANDCUFFED Him, awaiting trial and maybe thrown away the key.

Unlike ever before, we actually HAVE a military force that is faced with the shocking reality that they actually have domestic enemies of our constitution in DC!
Uncharted territory is where we are as a nation, and it's a chaotic mess that's going to get worse before it gets better.
God help us all, and I do mean that sincerely.
>Uncharted territory
>As if Obama's doing anything different than any other politician

 
Old 03-25-2012, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,198 posts, read 22,263,933 times
Reputation: 23827
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
it is the duty of all soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines to refuse to obey what they think is an illegal order. if they so believe it, then following an illegal order and carrying it out does not relieve themselves of the criminal prosecutions that may occur because of that order.

one of the 1st classes i had when going through basic training taught that.
Yes, indeed. And there are provisions in the military laws that set the conditions on how a refusal is to be made. They are all to be handled inside the military. Questioning the authority of the Commander in Chief is not one of them.

Blogging is not in those provisions. Publicly instigating mutiny is also not in the provisions, either. No member of the service, from top to bottom, can contravene the Commander in Chief's orders, period.

If Sergeant Stein has a problem with Obama, he is free to voice it out of uniform personally, but he is not free to publicly voice it while in service. That was also taught in basic training.

He's getting off light with a dismissal. In earlier times, he would have had to face his battalion while his uniform was stripped and would have been drummed out with the battalion's backs to him. This kind of withering humiliation isn't done any more, but in his case, I think it should be revived. The worst he'll get is his stripes cut off his uniform. I feel sorry for his wife and kids. They're going to catch hell because of his big mouth, and they don't deserve it.
 
Old 03-25-2012, 01:58 AM
 
4,862 posts, read 7,945,756 times
Reputation: 5763

Branded (in color) - YouTube
 
Old 03-25-2012, 01:58 AM
 
4,042 posts, read 3,522,864 times
Reputation: 1968
True that he knew what he was doing was against code. He knew he had every right to post at forums like we are now, but he was not supposed to put himself and his military service on the line and be running an organization or website as a way to voice his opinion.
 
Old 03-25-2012, 03:07 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,169,069 times
Reputation: 5239
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I agree.

It is also the duty of all soldiers to make sure that the orders they are refusing are worth refusing. Moreover, it is not the duty of soldiers to broadcast their attitude of defiance on the internet, to suggest that other soldiers do the same, and to goad the president and high officials to stop him.

Let's just cut the bullsh*t. My old man was in the military twice, once in WWII and once in Korea. Had any moron had the balls to fire off a letter to the editor telling readers that he wasn't going to follow the unconstitutional orders of Harry Truman or Dwight Eisenhower, that soldier would have an officer's boot so far up his ass he'd be eating leather for lunch. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. So cut the crap.

This guy attends tea party rallies with rooms that are probably half full of birther idiots who deny his C-in-C's eligibility to be president. Let's not pretend this is some sort of innocuous example of free political discourse.


since you want to cut the BS. I knew for a fact when I was in the Army, that while in uniform, my right to free speech was curtailed.
but when i was out of uniform, I was allowed as much free speech as every other american, especially at political rallies and elections.

also please remember, every illegal order is worth refusing.
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