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Old 04-01-2012, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,381,739 times
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Interesting so there was only a 20 lb difference between Zimmerman and Martin. I remember when this story first broke we were told there was a 100lb difference.

Quote:
However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5-foot-9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6-foot-1 and 150, wrestling on the ground.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us...agewanted=6&hp

 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:33 PM
 
7,934 posts, read 8,570,189 times
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The footage showing Zimmerman in the police precinct, appearing unharmed to any reasonable person, is pretty damning if you ask me. Looks an awful lot more like a guy who accidentally let his malice get the better of him and made a very stupid decision more than it does a guy who feared for his life. The story they're trying to manufacture to justify the incident is comical.
 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:36 PM
 
2,674 posts, read 4,384,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Interesting so there was only a 20 lb difference between Zimmerman and Martin. I remember when this story first broke we were told there was a 100lb difference.



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us...agewanted=6&hp
So that would make it a fair fight then?
You don't need to read the Art of War for that one.
 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,381,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyDay View Post
Wow.

When I think of the difference that an unemployed, non-degreed man of 28 who lived with his parents could've made in my life. It's almost a poetic as something Ralph Ellison would have written.
Where do you get he lived with his parents and was unemplyed from?


Quote:
Married now to Shellie Nicole Dean, a cosmetologist who is studying to be a nurse, he was attending college and working full-time at Digital Risk, a fraud-detection company retained by financial institutions. The job seemed a natural fit.

Digital Risk helps institutions like Bank of America and Freddie Mac to rid their balance sheets of the kinds of toxic loans that led to the 2008 banking crisis. Mr. Zimmerman was among hundreds of auditors who work in a four-story office building in nearby Maitland, mining borrowers’ files, sniffing out lies and scrutinizing hardship letters for any hint of deceit that would allow the lender to file a claim.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us...agewanted=4&hp
 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:44 PM
 
2,674 posts, read 4,384,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Where do you get he lived with his parents and was unemplyed from?




http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us...al/index.jsonp
Bad link.
 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,381,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyDay View Post
So that would make it a fair fight then?
You don't need to read the Art of War for that one.
More fair then the 100lb difference meme you and others were pushing. Anyway I found this part the most intriguing part of the article. I don't think I've read to date how SYG really changed the investigation game down in Florida.

Quote:
Sanford police have said that once Mr. Zimmerman declared that he had shot Trayvon in the chest in self-defense, they were barred from arresting him by the state’s now-famous Stand Your Ground law, the broadest protection of self-defense in the country. It immediately requires law enforcement officials to prove that a suspect did not act in self-defense, and sets the case on a slow track.

Angela B. Corey, the state attorney for the Jacksonville area who has been appointed special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, said that the controversial 2005 law has changed the rules for prosecutors. Making arrests, filing charges and securing convictions are more difficult and time consuming. Now, she said, “There is a different standard.”
Seems to me the law needs to be tweaked.
 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,381,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyDay View Post
Bad link.
Thanks fixed it.
 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:49 PM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,887,946 times
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i thought this was interesting, on zimmerman calling the police so many times:

Trayvon Martin shooting: Examine the prelimary police report that has the narrative of the events that transpired on February 26, 2012 at 2831 Retreat View Circle in Sanford


it looks like zimmerman reported anything he thought was suspicious, 41 pages worth. this lists all the calls that zimmerman made. (the title is from the original link, not the reports)

then again, it does seem like a neighborhood starting to have some trouble if you read the reports, whatever S21S is. (web of deception)

Last edited by floridasandy; 04-01-2012 at 09:08 PM..
 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:52 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,978,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamboodude View Post
You have to establish that Zimmerman is the aggressor - that he provoked the use of force against himself.
A mysterious well built man following a young man for no obvious reason or authority? If you would care to be honest in this debate, what would you think if someone matching that description was following you around your neighborhood?

Quote:
If there was evidence that Zimmerman laid hands on Martin...then perhaps we could label Zimmerman as the aggressor.
Ah, Hoss, since everyone is so quick to side with Zimmerman because of the so called "stand your ground" law why would Martin have to demonstrate anything other than his fear of death or serious harm to defend himself with a bag of skittles, a can of ice tea and his fists?

Quote:
But in fact Zimmerman was in a place where he lived and had every right to be and he in fact would be well within his rights to challenge the presence of Martin.
I don't know why I have to constantly repeat myself...

Zimmerman had a right to challenge Martin, however he also had an obligation to do everything in his power to avoid being involved in an angry confrontation. But the record is clear that an angry Zimmerman went out and sought a confrontation despite police advising him not to do so. From that point on the onus of responsibility falls squarely on Zimmermans shoulders according to the previously cited Florida statute.

Quote:
I can even see this being a situation in which Martin had a right to attack to defend himself while Zimmerman still does not qualify as an aggressor.
According to the much beloved Florida statute, it doesn't matter is Zimmerman "qualified" as the aggressor (what ever that means) just that Martin had reasonable belief that his life was in danger, and I think that an unidentified male following you qualifies.

Quote:
The law does not have reciprocity.
I have no idea as to what you are trying to say, unless you found this an opportune time to use the word reciprocity.

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You don't have to be an aggressor to cause a reasonable person to fear bodily harm or death.
You got it.

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I am aware of no statute that places different requirements on behavior depending on whether or not you are armed.
No but it does speak to the issues of state of mind and intent if and when deadly force is used.

Quote:
And again having a weapon in no way creates some new duties
There is an implied duty. Zimmerman had no prior knowledge of any criminal act committed by Martin. He also had no reasonable expectation that Martin was in the act of committing a forced felony as defined by Florida statute. As a result, Zimmerman had every duty to avoid a conflict. Going after someone based upon Zimmermans "suspicions" in his state of mind gives the impression that he was willing and ready to used deadly force in a confrontation with Martin.
 
Old 04-01-2012, 08:59 PM
 
2,674 posts, read 4,384,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
A mysterious well built man following a young man for no obvious reason or authority? If you would care to be honest in this debate, what would you think if someone matching that description was following you around your neighborhood?



Ah, Hoss, since everyone is so quick to side with Zimmerman because of the so called "stand your ground" law why would Martin have to demonstrate anything other than his fear of death or serious harm to defend himself with a bag of skittles, a can of ice tea and his fists?



I don't know why I have to constantly repeat myself...

Zimmerman had a right to challenge Martin, however he also had an obligation to do everything in his power to avoid being involved in an angry confrontation. But the record is clear that an angry Zimmerman went out and sought a confrontation despite police advising him not to do so. From that point on the onus of responsibility falls squarely on Zimmermans shoulders according to the previously cited Florida statute.



According to the much beloved Florida statute, it doesn't matter is Zimmerman "qualified" as the aggressor (what ever that means) just that Martin had reasonable belief that his life was in danger, and I think that an unidentified male following you qualifies.



I have no idea as to what you are trying to say, unless you found this an opportune time to use the word reciprocity.



You got it.



No but it does speak to the issues of state of mind and intent if and when deadly force is used.



There is an implied duty. Zimmerman had no prior knowledge of any criminal act committed by Martin. He also had no reasonable expectation that Martin was in the act of committing a forced felony as defined by Florida statute. As a result, Zimmerman had every duty to avoid a conflict. Going after someone based upon Zimmermans "suspicions" in his state of mind gives the impression that he was willing and ready to used deadly force in a confrontation with Martin.
Once it gets in front of a jury. And it will. Caselaw aside, politics will force this to court. Then, you have to describe (unless he doesn't take the stand) exactly why you felt your life was in danger from a situation you created.
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