U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-08-2012, 02:59 PM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,082 posts, read 40,870,133 times
Reputation: 29752

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Have you read any of the documentation put together by the American Society of Civil Engineers with 140,000 members?



ASCE 9-11 Resources
Ever hear the statement "A camel is a horse designed by committee"?

More people involved doesn't guarantee a more accurate result.

Engineers/architects have access to data tables which aid in many design decisons. Where do they find tables detailing the effects of jet liners flying into buildings at xxx-knots while carrying xx,xxx-pounds of jet fuel?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-08-2012, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,760 posts, read 14,174,683 times
Reputation: 15943
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
That would suggest vertical loading would be supported entirely by the inner core. LOL
That is exactly right. You might want to look at how buildings are designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
The exo skeleton provided vertical support...
No, it did not. The exo-skeleton provided only lateral load support.

Again, go look at building codes across America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
... the lateral support came from the floor tied to the inner core. When you remove the floor there is no longer any lateral support allowing the outside skin to buckle.
Fail.

Not according to NIST and not to embarrass you, but the tallest frame building in the US is the Monadnock Building in Chicago.

It is 16 stories and was built in 1891.

The building codes and laws were changed sometime later which prevent any high-rise from being built where the exterior supports the vertical load. You can build one where the exterior helps support the vertical load, but 100% of the vertical load must be supported entirely by the core.

You're extremely weak on your civic engineering.

Debunking yet another...

Mircea


Quote:
Originally Posted by Democan View Post
Well I am a Civil/Structural Engineer with a Mechanical Engineering background and extensive field experience for over 30 years. And the simple fact is even if the pancake theory were correct and the outer grid steel crumpled and folded all the way to Ground Zero, the physics involved would require far more than 10, 15 or even 30 seconds to physically occur.
No doubt.

I had a link to the demolition of Sander Hall at the University of Cincinnati. It was 23 stories and in terms of floor space, one floor was half the size of a floor in WTC1 or WTC2.

520 pounds of C-4 PBX were used to bring down all 23 stories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Democan View Post
Moreover the initial moment of inertia from the gravity driven 'hammer effect' of the top dropping a 100 odd feet at once would be slowed with each successive floor impacted on the way down. Few like to recall that supposedly there was zero damage to the structure below and therefore no chance for the initial drop to accelerate and sustain evenly and consistently all the way down. Those towers were not structural cracker boxes so poorly engineered, but we're ahead of their time and built hell-for-stout.
Let's just do the math.

We're using Displacement = 1/2 * g * t^2.

Seconds/Displacement in Feet/Velocity

At standard ambient temperature and pressure (70 F and 14.696 psia), dry air has a density of ρSTP = 0.075 lbm/ft3.
At 70* F and 14.696 psia, dry air has a density of 0.075 lb/ft^3.

Factoring air resistance

Sec/Displacement in Feet
1 -30.4
2 -60.7
3 -91.1
4 -121.4
5 -151.8
6 -182.1
7 -212.5
8 -242.8
9 -273.2
10 -303.5
11 -333.9
12 -364.2
13 -394.6
14 -425.0
15 -455.3
16 -485.7
17 -516.0
18 -546.4
19 -576.7
20 -607.1
21 -637.4
22 -667.8
23 -698.1
24 -728.5
25 -758.8
26 -789.2
27 -819.6
28 -849.9
29 -880.3
30 -910.6
31 -941.0
32 -971.3
33 -1001.7
34 -1032.0
35 -1062.4
36 -1092.7
37 -1123.1
38 -1153.4
39 -1183.8
40 -1214.2
41 -1244.5
42 -1274.9
43 -1305.2
44 -1335.6
45 -1365.9

That's about how long it should have taken each tower to totally collapse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Democan View Post
On another note, realize that there's no way those responsible will ever be brought to justice. What are people gonna' do, take to the streets in more mass protest than before, dwarfing the OWS crowds? Yeah, and then what??? Those who staged 9/11 were very wise about knowing they would have their way. Ultimately too many Americans just won't want to hear or believe it, even if irrefutable proof was presented. Too many just want to wake up, go to work and head to the Mall on weekends.
Well, yes, you'll have to forget about justice.

I suspect that someone's personal private army of mercenaries were involved and those were mostly Israelis more than likely associated with Israeli Organized Crime. Israel does not extradite, so even if they admitted it tomorrow, nothing would be done.

Concurring...

Mircea
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2012, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa.
67 posts, read 29,864 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
This fails any definition of credibility. I'm glad your friend had "modleing softwear" The general idea that you can drop the top 20 floors or so of a 100 story buildind 100 ft and not have it take out the floors below is utter insane if you know the kinetic energy equation. Thanks for sharing your expertise with us, I suspect you are basically just lying.
So why don't you show us the kinetic energy equation that proves the towers could possibly collapse anywhere nearly as fast as they did. Or why not look up "Nano Thermite For Dummies". A plausible scenario that already fits scheduled activities by installation crews at WTC-1 and 2 over the course of a year before 9/11 listing the replacement with new vapor barrier ceiling tiles that actually contained a plastic liner imbedded in the tiles impregnated with a sandwiched layer of explosive nano thermite and tiny computer chip trancievers/igniters. And another installation of supposed upgrades to telecom cabinets that were actually cell phone powered triggering sequencers on each floor set for frequencies that would set off the igniters on that floor's ceiling tiles. The details are more extensive and too long to list here, but the info's online. Basically with a special computer model sequencer of each tower from a remote loc., with a mere mouse click the sequencer program dials the cell phone triggering devices in the telecom cabinets in a micro-second pattern just ahead of the falling main debris. Each floor's tiles exploding acts like a knife that slices all steel and turns everything to powder and mostly small debris in an instant. Much like what the footage shows on that sunny September morning.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2012, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa.
67 posts, read 29,864 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
That is exactly right. You might want to look at how buildings are designed.



No, it did not. The exo-skeleton provided only lateral load support.

Again, go look at building codes across America.



Fail.

Not according to NIST and not to embarrass you, but the tallest frame building in the US is the Monadnock Building in Chicago.

It is 16 stories and was built in 1891.

The building codes and laws were changed sometime later which prevent any high-rise from being built where the exterior supports the vertical load. You can build one where the exterior helps support the vertical load, but 100% of the vertical load must be supported entirely by the core.

You're extremely weak on your civic engineering.

Debunking yet another...

Mircea




No doubt.

I had a link to the demolition of Sander Hall at the University of Cincinnati. It was 23 stories and in terms of floor space, one floor was half the size of a floor in WTC1 or WTC2.

520 pounds of C-4 PBX were used to bring down all 23 stories.



Let's just do the math.

We're using Displacement = 1/2 * g * t^2.

Seconds/Displacement in Feet/Velocity

At standard ambient temperature and pressure (70 F and 14.696 psia), dry air has a density of ρSTP = 0.075 lbm/ft3.
At 70* F and 14.696 psia, dry air has a density of 0.075 lb/ft^3.

Factoring air resistance

Sec/Displacement in Feet
1 -30.4
2 -60.7
3 -91.1
4 -121.4
5 -151.8
6 -182.1
7 -212.5
8 -242.8
9 -273.2
10 -303.5
11 -333.9
12 -364.2
13 -394.6
14 -425.0
15 -455.3T
16 -485.7
17 -516.0
18 -546.4
19 -576.7
20 -607.1
21 -637.4
22 -667.8
23 -698.1
24 -728.5
25 -758.8
26 -789.2
27 -819.6
28 -849.9
29 -880.3
30 -910.6
31 -941.0
32 -971.3
33 -1001.7
34 -1032.0
35 -1062.4
36 -1092.7
37 -1123.1
38 -1153.4
39 -1183.8
40 -1214.2
41 -1244.5
42 -1274.9
43 -1305.2
44 -1335.6
45 -1365.9

That's about how long it should have taken each tower to totally collapse.



Well, yes, you'll have to forget about justice.

I suspect that someone's personal private army of mercenaries were involved and those were mostly Israelis more than likely associated with Israeli Organized Crime. Israel does not extradite, so even if they admitted it tomorrow, nothing would be done.

Concurring...

Mircea
The problem here is an example of how math is only accurate and meaningful if it's applied correctly or relevantly. Your figure is nowhere near how fast or slow the towers should have fallen for several reasons. But to shorten the point you're comparing it to the demo of another structure that was intended to come down. Forgetting that again there was zero damage structurally below the impact sites. The moment of inertia from gravitational force is diminished immediately with each floor below, slowing the collapse and force developed before it can build further inertia to keep going. Moreover the steel would crumple and buckle rather that virtually pulverizing to dust as the speeding top section and attendant debris falls in a very generous 11 to 12 sec top to bottom. There are a host of other reasons why the twin towers collapsing as they did just doesn't follow structural convention. Some day it may come to where some vital pivotal piece of info emerges and turns American's stomachs into deep dark repulsion. And what's said here is only supporting evidence after the fact. Not sure I want to see that day come myself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2012, 04:53 PM
 
8,487 posts, read 5,891,393 times
Reputation: 1114
Unfortunately, if you cannot gain access to all evidence this can create an issue. Crime scenes are left intact for a reason.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2012, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa.
67 posts, read 29,864 times
Reputation: 19
Fortunately the single greatest and unshakeable intact evidence alone that pointedly leaves no doubt that there was a significant level of corroboration on the part of US officials (despite arguments about the exact details making sense or not) is sealed on uncorruptable video footage from several sources and perspectives under the best and most revealingly well sunlit conditions on the morning of 9/11. Specifically that the buildings came down as they did, identically the same, at nearly free-fall speed. Shy the difference accounted for from the wind resistance of the floors successively collapsing atop one another on the way down, in less than 11 secs. The plain irrefutable fact is it's quite impossible for such to happen, even via the physics involved in the pancake theory, unless the structure was being compromised by subversive means. At some point in the future people will review the video from 9/11 and feel like they're watching a primitive attempt at Hollywood production with outdated computer special effects.

Last edited by Democan; 04-08-2012 at 07:22 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2012, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa.
67 posts, read 29,864 times
Reputation: 19
Admittedly it's incredible how much sources that hold considerable public credibility have gone to such great lengths to conjure the proof that no funny business was at play about 9/11. But it's also true that there's a lot a stake regarding the maintaining of the socioeconomic structure in the US. And unfortunately a big unspoken element of this reality is maintaining a modicum of fear. There are fragile thin unspoken veils surrounding the status quo that those large and in charge will go to surreal lengths to sustain at all costs. More than just a conspiracy, it's the glue the keeps Americans believing and in line. All I know is despite how impossible it sounds that the US conspired with others to stage 9/11, it's even more impossible for the Twin Towers to fall in less than 11 secs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2012, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, California
4,375 posts, read 2,749,921 times
Reputation: 1041
Oh so I was right. This is all about some attack that happened because of 8 years of Bush II. Just checking.

Thanks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2012, 09:22 PM
 
39,293 posts, read 40,644,556 times
Reputation: 16122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
That is exactly right. You might want to look at how buildings are designed.
How can you possibly be serious, the floors extended 60? feet from the core. The only way you could support weight like that from the core is if they were of a very large cantilever design which they aren't.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2012, 09:54 PM
 
3,337 posts, read 2,566,327 times
Reputation: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
This fails any definition of credibility. I'm glad your friend had "modleing softwear" The general idea that you can drop the top 20 floors or so of a 100 story buildind 100 ft and not have it take out the floors below is utter insane if you know the kinetic energy equation. Thanks for sharing your expertise with us, I suspect you are basically just lying.
Seriously? Democan + 1500 other Architects and Engineers are lying?

Do the math.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:51 AM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top