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Old 04-13-2012, 01:03 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,583 posts, read 8,260,609 times
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Adapted from an earlier thread. The "Whys" and "Hows" deserve their own examination.

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Socialism and communism are not identical, but the differences between them are far less important than the similarities.

Both feature schemes where a central government (which isn't in communist plans but is always brought in when someone actually tries to run a communist government) judges how much people should be paid. The pay is usually based on what the govt decides they need rather than by how much they contributed.

This results in workers realizing after a few years, that working harder won't benefit them much. Some work harder anyway, others decide to slack off and/or spend more time with family etc. Then as time goes on, the harder workers see the others' example, and while most keep working hard, a few more slack off. They cycle keeps repeating with a few more reducing their effort, then later a few more etc.

Socialist or communist societies usually wind up deteriorating, because there is little incentive to work hard, aside from personal work ethics. And even those with good ethics, tend to deteriorate over a long period of time, for similar reasons.

The long, concentrated periods of difficult work, effort, and sacrifice that advance a society, come more and more from only the diminishing number who maintain their hard-work ethic and loyalty in the face of increasing indifference and lack of material reward. While those people are rightly regarded as heros or pillars, there is far less incentive to do what they do, in socialistic or communist societies. The incentive is greater in free-market societies where people can work for the chance of great rewards in addition to great moral satisfaction.

So socialistic or communistic societies invaribly lose, in competition with free-market societies. For that reason, they abhor competition, and often expend great effort to crush it or isolate themselves from it... only to lose even more from its lack.

American congressmen and other political animals, often lost track of their real jobs - protecting people's rights and defending them against theft, fraud, and coercion. And they take the easier road of getting re-elected by taking things from small numbers of the more affluent, and giving them away to larger number of the less affluent.

As this scheme gets enacted into law, it quickly deteriorates to a pattern similar to what I said above: deciding what pay people get based on what they "need" rather than what they earn. In some countries, this is done by making the government, the official employer. In others (such as the U.S.), it's done by letting the government take money out of people paychecks (with far more taken from those who earn a lot), and simultaneoulsy set up programs to pay out to those who earn less. The result is the same: Government decides who gets paid how much, usually according to what they "need" rather than what they earn.

The politicians who set this up, often didn't intend to implement socialism. But what they wind up with, isn't much different from it. More importantly, the ultimate results are no different, either.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:52 PM
 
Location: in Mary Ann and Ginger's hut
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it doesn't work, and its morally wrong
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:56 PM
 
1,726 posts, read 1,258,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Both feature schemes where a central government (which isn't in communist plans but is always brought in when someone actually tries to run a communist government) judges how much people should be paid. The pay is usually based on what the govt decides they need rather than by how much they contributed.
This is wrong. Socialism has a long history of anarchism and the end stage of communism is a stateless, classless society. The end stage of communism is a bit utopian, but you don't need a strong, centralized government for workers to own the means of productions where they make decisions in a democratic manner.

In fact, worker cooperatives have a long and rich history. Personally, if I didn't have my current jobs, I would probably seek out a worker cooperative to work for.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
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Show us please an example of a long-lasting successful country based around communism or socialism.

All such countries maintain order via brute force or near brute force, suppression of human rights, and state control of media.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:57 PM
 
Location: in Mary Ann and Ginger's hut
639 posts, read 704,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
Show us please an example of a long-lasting successful country based around communism or socialism.

All such countries maintain order via brute force or near brute force, suppression of human rights, and state control of media.
Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Common Anomaly View Post
This is wrong. Socialism has a long history of anarchism and the end stage of communism is a stateless, classless society.
That's not how it worked in the real world.

Quote:
The end stage of communism is a bit utopian, but you don't need a strong, centralized government for workers to own the means of productions where they make decisions in a democratic manner.
Yes itís a utopian ideology that is why it doesn't work.
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:06 PM
 
Location: the Beaver State
6,468 posts, read 11,517,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
Show us please an example of a long-lasting successful country based around communism or socialism.

All such countries maintain order via brute force or near brute force, suppression of human rights, and state control of media.
China? Poised to over come the US in a lot of ways within the next decade.
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Land of Thought and Flow
8,323 posts, read 13,472,138 times
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Well..

HUM4N N4TUR3 PR3V3NTS N31TH3R TRU3 SOC14L1SM NOR COMMUN1SM FROM 3V3R WORK1NG OUT.
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:10 PM
 
1,726 posts, read 1,258,067 times
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Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
That's not how it worked in the real world.
No, you are confusing state capitalism with socialism.

Quote:
Yes it’s a utopian ideology that is why it doesn't work.
As I said, worker cooperatives do exist where the workers own the means of production and make decisions in a democratic manner.

While achieving a classless society as marxism purports is pure idealogical BS, socialism can and does work.
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:12 PM
 
1,726 posts, read 1,258,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamellr View Post
China? Poised to over come the US in a lot of ways within the next decade.
In what ways? Plus, much of China's recent growth can be attributed to the opening up towards markets, not central planning.
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