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Old 04-19-2012, 11:39 AM
 
7,006 posts, read 6,981,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinArmageddons View Post
They still have the same idiotic hangups as us on assisted suicide. Other than that, it is superior.
Really? So why do Canadians come to the US to receive proper medical care?
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:52 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,729,480 times
Reputation: 4570
Quote:
Originally Posted by renault View Post
Really? So why do Canadians come to the US to receive proper medical care?
What, that ol' meme again?

Quote:
Results from these sources do not support the widespread perception that Canadian residents seek care extensively in the United States. Indeed, the numbers found are so small as to be barely detectible relative to the use of care by Canadians at home.
Phantoms In The Snow: Canadians
Quote:
In a Canadian National Population Health Survey of 17,276 Canadian residents, it was reported that only 0.5% sought medical care in the US in the previous year. Of these, less than a quarter had traveled to the U.S. expressly to get that care.[70
Quote:
Many US citizens purchase prescription drugs from Canada, either over the Internet or by traveling there to buy them in person, because prescription drug prices in Canada are substantially lower than prescription drug prices in the United States; this cross-border purchasing has been estimated at $1 billion annually
Health care in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:53 AM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,439,563 times
Reputation: 12597
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
It may not be your intention to do so, but you seem to be "all over the place" ideologically. You support abortion, yet you find it particularly offensive that the decision to abort would be based on a disability or birth defect? What about the 95% that are done purely for convenience? Seems to me, that should be the area of greatest offense, and not when there were reasonable arguments and mitigating circumstances such as in the cases of rape, incest, threat to the mother's life, and defect/quality of life issues of the fetus.

It seems to me that on the one hand, you give greater weight to pro choice, than to the sanctity of life, while at the same time, worry that this particular case of the mother's wishes for her children's quality of life poses grave danger in setting some precedent that will lead to eugenic cleansing of individuals for any type of disability. I really can't find a consistent view or principle in that level of contradiction.

Firstly, I don't perceive such a threat inherent in this case other than the threat of the "state" or "consensus" overriding the mother's instincts and compassion for her own children's best interests. And though I'm sure there could be exceptions, chances are that a mother is far more likely to defend the true best interests of her children than the state or the self righteous masses would be.

Secondly, there needs to be a rational differentiation made between "disabled" and "vegetative" states of being, with these specific individuals far beyond mere physical or mental impairment, such as is insinuated in labeling them "handicapped" or "disabled". One thinks of such conditions as well short of total incapacitation and unresponsiveness to stimuli for decades.

I think that we need to have common sense guidelines for these types of situations and decisions which place emphasis on 1) definitive quality of life determinations and long term prognosis for any form of rehabilitation, and 2) the final decision residing in the proper hands .... that being the compassionate wisdom of family, rather than dispassionate ideology.

Given this situation has been on-going for decades, #1 has long been satisfied that there is no hope for restoring any reasonable level of quality of life (simple existence isn't sufficient). And #2 has also been satisfied, since the mother has demonstrated a long term commitment, and shows no signs of acting out of self interest.

The biggest threat I see in not defending the mother's status as the final decision maker is the greater danger presented by allowing the "State" to hold and exercise that authority. Given that the "state" in general has already demonstrated a well established history of questionable commitment, and or competency in defending the public's best interests, I'd trust the mother's instincts and compassion in absence of clear and compelling evidence to the contrary.

Whenever one allows the "state" to override the individual's decisions, that's when the greatest threat of undesirable precedent is being established.
First I need to clarify. You said I support abortion. I don’t support abortion. I support the choice to abort. I don’t think I could abort my own baby if the cases weren’t extreme, such as if I were raped or if the baby was going to die minutes after birth. If it was a matter of me dying or the baby, I think I would sacrifice my life for the baby, but I am not sure cause that’s a situation that I think you need to be in before you really know what you would do.

I support everyone’s choice even if I disagree vehemently with what their choice is. I would support this mother’s choice to end her children’s life, but I don’t support the government regulating what mothers do with their babies, whether that’s in regards to abortion or cutting off life support.

I don’t think people should use abortion as birth control. I don’t think they should use it as a form of eugenics. I don’t think people should use abortion except for in extreme cases where the baby will die at birth or the mother was raped. But I also don’t believe that I get to tell people how to live. So while I may disagree (sometimes vehemently) with someone’s choice—that is where the line is drawn. I will not support legislation to control someone else’s life based on my own morals and principles.

My viewpoint on this particular issue may not make sense to many people cause it doesn’t fall cleanly within liberal or conservative politics. I feel that liberals and conservatives both fight for some freedoms and fight for some ways to control other people’s lives. They just decide different aspects of life are more worth controlling or protecting the freedoms therein. I regard freedom as more important than controlling people’s lives, even when I feel what they are doing is wrong. It’s not my place to force my own morals onto other people.

I disagree with any mother who decides to abort her disabled baby or who decided to abort cause she didn’t take the pill, but I will not pass legislation that allows my opinion to control her life. My opinion is my opinion, and I have a right to my opinion, but I don’t have the right to impose my will on another person’s life. Unfortunately, that includes imposing my will to prevent her from imposing her will on her unborn child’s life, but it is what it is.

I agree, that maybe we need a distinction between “disabled” and “vegetative”. I do believe these two adults’ condition goes beyond what most people would consider “disabled”. It’s just that some posters have expressed that they would abort a baby who was only disabled and not necessarily vegetative, and it does offend me as someone who is disabled, to know that people would throw away my life just because I don’t live it in the way they define as fulfilling and satisfying, even though I consider my own life to be more than fulfilling and satisfying.

Obviously I think I am consistent in my own perspective. I think conservative and liberal politics both tend to be inconsistent, sometimes defending the right to freedom, and other times defending the right to control people.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:54 AM
 
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I'd support this woman if her kids were part of the cast of Jersey Shore.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:30 PM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
17,765 posts, read 40,091,372 times
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I read the whole article. And in this particular instance, I agree that her two children should be euthanized. I feel very sorry for their mother.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Westcoast
313 posts, read 449,509 times
Reputation: 407
Sorry but I don't side with her, not unless they're on life-support. She chose to have her babies, and kids come to the world with a right to unconditional love. At least they are in an institition. I've seen adults kids like that on the street with a parent panhandling. No lie!
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:49 PM
 
14,941 posts, read 8,555,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
Nope, right and wrong are not relative. Taking the life of innocent people is always wrong.
There is no such thing as "always" ... no such case of "never".

And this is a particularly sensitive area for me at the moment, but my story may offer some insight here, or at least a greater level of consideration, so I'll share it.

My Mom just passed a couple of weeks ago, and for 42 days prior, 3 trips between two different hospitals, a nursing home and a hospice, 5 moves in all, 50-60 different nurses, several different doctors, I tried without success to protect her best interests while seeking the best care, including the inability to convince the medical establishment to try alternative approaches, while also removing her from a hospice to prevent them from euthanizing her prematurely, as was their clear intent and efforts. It was a brutal 42 emotionally charged days, with not one day passing that some inappropriate level of care, or poor decision, or inaction wasn't experienced. Not one day!

It all started with her awakening with significant cognitive disruption in the early AM hours, and a rush to the hospital, who looked upon the initial symptoms as a possible stroke. After 8 days, they identified pneumonia and a mass in her lung, but no answer for the cognitive issues that were dismissed as age related, in spite of our insistence that this condition was abrupt, and not early stage dementia. She was ready for discharge and recommended to intensive inpatient (3 hour/day) rehab which was totally inappropriate for her physical and mental state, (she was very weak, and had difficulty in even using bathroom facilities with assistance) for which I intervened and had her transferred to a facility for less intense rehab. The discharge orders also included instructions to schedule a biopsy on the lung mass the following week, which I also rejected, given her weak state would not make her a candidate for conventional cancer therapy, so the wisdom was totally lacking in the advice to undergo a biopsy to identify lung cancer that could not be treated anyway (later confirmed as the proper decision by a couple of other doctors).

Back at the nursing facility, the same course was followed (though the level of care received was superior to the hospital) for 6 days, until she was found totally unresponsive and vital signs alarming, rushed to the emergency room of another hospital. There, finally the ER doctor put the pieces together ... the lung mass was causing an arrhythmia (a-fib) in her heart, which was causing disruption to oxygen levels, and hence the cognitive disruptions. Once the a-fib was brought back to a normal rhythm, the cognitive issues rapidly and dramatically improved, confirming the ER doctor's diagnosis. Once stabilized, she was placed in ICU, and there, she quickly made progress to be ready for discharge back to the nursing facility, armed with medication to keep her heart rhythm stabilized ... yet, in spite of the evidence, the specialists in ICU (Cardiologist, Pulmonologist, and Oncologist) told me that the lung had nothing to do with the cognitive disruption (as explained to me by the ER doctor). But they did have a very bleak prognosis for her, suggesting a few weeks to live, and not much more. What should a patient or their advocate believe, given so many disconnects and lack of proper diagnosis and advice? Yet, with all of that, the next decision was my greatest error in judgment, that I hope folks reading this will file away in case they are ever in this situation .... now enter the inpatient hospice care.

She was "accepted" at a hospice house based on this bleak diagnosis of only a few weeks to live. And this facility had the highest reputation (including an endorsement from a neighbor who actually works in the hospice field). There, my nightmare really began, just as Mom had regained her sharp mental state, we had devised a plan together to engage in some alternative nutritional treatment for her assumed (but not proven) lung cancer, given that there were no conventional therapies for which she could tolerate. We had nothing to lose, so that was the plan.

The Hospice House however, had another plan, and that plan was to immediately start their palliative care routine, regardless of Mom's actual status or our wishes as a family, and these efforts were quite covert, too, including the immediate removal (without our knowledge) of the heart rhythm stabilizing medication, and a full scale employment (pharmaceutical assault) of morphine treatment, in absence of pain. This morphine was being used as a "breathing aid", even though she had not actually experienced any significant labor in breathing at that point, requiring medication ... but soon after those treatments began, she did fall into labored breathing, (and almost 24 hour sleeping) which the staff there insisted was just symptoms of the rapid progression of the disease (in less than 48 hours, mind you). Of course, I put 2 + 2 together, and realized that morphine is a respiratory depressant, and that these treatments were the likely source of this rapid onset of labored breathing. Yet, no amount of rational discussion would deter them, forcing me to demand a meeting with the attending physician. At the conclusion of a not so friendly exchange in which I attempted to explain to him and his head of nursing that our goal was to provide her nutritional support known to assist in cancer cases, in hopes of extending her life, while having them there in case our efforts failed, I was told directly that "we are not in the business of rehabilitation!, period! And I was in the wrong place if that were our goal". (Of course this was 4 days into her stay there, and that's when it became evident to me why they constantly urged me not to make great efforts to provide her nutrition or liquids ... warning me about lung aspiration dangers, which Mom seemed to have no trouble swallowing food or liquid at all.)

At the conclusion of the meeting, they reluctantly agreed to cease the morphine treatments at my demand, until such time as pain became an issue and I specifically authorized it's use, and instead, any breathing treatment hence forth would be a dilator like Albuterol. So, over the next three days the Albuterol was required in every increasing frequency, or so I thought. On a Friday night (the meeting had been held on Wednesday morning) my sister asked the nurse administering the "breathing treatment" what exactly was being used (I assumed albuterol because that was all I had authorized in the meeting). The nurse responded matter of factly ... "Morphine". Absolutely dumbfounded, I immediately said, nurse, please remove that mask from my mother now. So this WITCH walks over and says as she's snatching the mask off Mom, "Mrs. X, I'm taking this off because your son doesn't want you to have a breathing treatment!! Furious rage held in check for that moment, I calmly said, Mom, I don't want you to have morphine as it will not help your breathing ... but I'm going to see that you get a proper medication to help your breathing. So .. these "medical professionals" lied to me, and continued dosing her with significant levels of morphine for three days AFTER they had promised to honor my demands and cease. And the whole while, Mom's breathing deteriorated and became too labored to actually take in nourishment or fluids.

At that point I marched out to the nurse's station, and issued them an ultimatum ...."the next person that administers that woman morphine will be hauled out of here in handcuffs by the Sheriff's department!" They angrily committed to no more morphine, claiming it was never listed on her chart not to give it ... and that they'd have to check with the doctor, that he would decide ... "He will decide? He will decide if she gets morphine or not? I don't think so nurse ... WE WILL DECIDE, the patient decides what medications she will accept, and I being the patient's advocate and medical power of attorney forbid you to administer morphine without our express permission. So, after being assured that no more morphine will be given, I leave for the night.

Next day ... I find out that just after I left, they, at the direction of the Doctor over the phone, administered Hydromorphone, which is a synthetic morphine that is 8 times stronger!!! At that point it was clear that their singular intent was to drug this woman to death, purposely, and that they had no intention of being honest with me, or honor our right to decide what was appropriate. Of course, that was the final straw, and her removal was our only recourse to this blatant violation of ethics and the damned laws of Texas.

Upon removal of her from this den of death loving ghouls and liars, and returning her to the previous nursing facility, that's when we discovered (in the discharge orders received) that she was immediately taken off the heart medication day one at the hospice, given not only morphine and hydromorphone, but 5 ... count them 5 different psychotropic drugs too ... including two heavy duty anti-psychotic drugs used for the treatment of schizophrenia patients. No wonder we couldn't keep her awake long enough or she had no energy or desire to take in nourishment. They had literally turned her into a zombie.

For the next few days, after detoxing from of all these drugs, she was far more aware and awake, and not needing nearly as much medication assistance in breathing ... but clearly her pneumonia had become much worse, being bombarded with drugs, no real nourishment for an extended period of a couple of weeks, and dehydrated. Her immune system was hammered, which was exactly counter to our efforts to strengthen it nutritionally. After about nine days back from the hospice, (and no significant labored breathing, mind you) her heart rate was found elevated to 155, and she was experiencing anxiety attacks ... the nurse thought it not to be of significance other than to administer an anti-anxiety (psychotropic) drug ... which I thought inappropriately nonchalant .... and demanded that the doctor be called and consulted. The doctor called in a team to do a ECG, and then decided that she needed to be transported back to the hospital ... the EMS tech (after getting the entire story) told me ... "good call. that heart rate is too high to be left untreated".

At the hospital it was determined that she was severely dehydrated which was causing the high heart rate, so IV's were done, and over the course of the next few days, her condition worsened, as the kidneys began to fail to eliminate, also symptomatic of extreme dehydration, coupled with her fragile state. Finally, on the last two days there, she began to experience her first signs of severe pain, as her body was starting to shut down, and that's when her attending physician and I had concluded that we were at the stage where palliative care was now called for ... and that decision is ultimately ... no matter how you characterize it ... assisting and hastening of death, because heavy opiates will indeed shut down the respiratory system as they mitigate pain. Such is the inherent nature of palliative care techniques, and such was the efforts immediately employed weeks before, prematurely by the Hospice.

The real point of this long story is, aside the multiple poor medical decisions, diagnosis' and less than helpful treatments (many of which I haven't touched upon here) outlined by the hospitals and nursing facility, the hospice people attempted to end her life purposely, quickly, and prematurely, even though she lived three more weeks, mostly pain free after removing her from their "care". I'm convinced that she would have lived much longer had she not had to endure the pharmacological assault and lack of nourishment and fluids imposed on her by these dealers of death at hospice, along with the attitudes obviosly embraced about the terminally diagnosed elderly.

It would be of noteworthy relevance to understand that patients of inpatient Hospice care have an average life expectancy of 7-8 days in hospice homes ... which might be the average length of time it takes to covertly euthanize these patients without actually shooting them in the head like lame horse.

(and you can read similar horror stories: Euthanasia and Hospice Information Center + articles - How to Stop Involuntary Euthanasia - Hospice Patients Alliance )

So I'm left with an empty feeling of what if ... and also a very real experience supporting the view that there is indeed widespread euthanasia being committed nationwide to terminally ill patients and how that can happen right in front of the unsuspecting, trusting loved ones and families of the ill. Believe me, they behaved with such a convincing bedside manner of care and compassion, that is, until I questioned their techniques and treatments ... then the true nature came forth and it was an ugly side indeed, to which all of the details have not been shared.

Also noteworthy, the Hospice literature provided by these hospice care facilities outline the "Common Stages" of death and what to expect in those last days and hours. Coincidentally, the multiple psychotropic drugs and morphine administered to my mother covertly and against my and her wishes, just so happen to mimic those very symptoms outlined in the hospice literature!! That's right, the common side effect of those drugs combined, cover virtually every symptom they claim are the common stages of terminally ill patients as they die naturally. Coincidence my arse.

The morral to this story is that trust in the medical establishment, and in the "state" to safeguard your loved one's best interests is a fools game, while human euthanasia seems to be a well established, albeit covertly practiced in plain sight to unsuspecting victims.

Now those in this field believe they are doing the right thing as they apparently believe in ending terminally ill patient's lives under the guise of palliative care before these patients experience the undesirable symptoms of actual last hours before death, to which palliative care has legitimate application. Just as damaging, this behavior actually prevented me from engaging in the alternative treatments for my mom which have in a number of cases shown miraculous results .... i.e. alkalizing green juices and high dose vitamin C treatments which I was unable to get anyone in the medical establishment to sponsor, or assist me with, while my efforts were coopted by covert actions. That is, until the last doctor on the scene actually took the time, and had an open enough mind to consult the literature and discuss and agree with trying these courses of action .. but Mom passed before we were able to start it.

Trust me when I tell you, not only are there effective alternative treatments to mainstream medical practices regarding terminally ill patients, but there is a concerted effort to deny such treatment effectiveness, while strenuous efforts are made to remove access to them, including recent FDA actions to shut down production of intravenous vitamin C products.

At the same time, everyone looks the other way as euthanasia is apparently being practiced on a wide scale .... while people denounce the actions of this caring mother who simply wants to do what's best for her now adult children suffering a virtual endless vegetative state.

How is this level of insanity and backwardness possible in a world that considers itself rational and well meaning? It is anything but that, and often the exact opposite.

Be warned ... only you and your loved ones can be trusted to decide what is in your own best interests ... and you'd better be prepared with adequate kowledge about any conditions you might suffer, because you cannot assume competence or honesty from the medical community, without the ability to verify.

I experienced lots of good nurses, and only a few bad ones .. but also a couple of demons. Same with the doctors, who often did not agree with each other, or really care enough to consult each other. To a few of them, my mother was nothing more than an opportunity to charge Medicare for doing virtually nothing. And that's the reality. The power to decide one's fate must be kept with the individual, and their advocates ... not the state, and certainly not the medical community.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
I am a nurse to people like this. I find some of you guys comments offensive.
Camparing them to grass? Really?
Last time I checked grass didn't have heartbeats.
And they wouldn't either, if not for machines.
Do you really consider that a positive quality of life?

It's the mother's choice to make here, no matter what you think.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:08 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,431,657 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Where did I say these wars are acceptable?
I made no reference to YOU embracing war at all. My first word was "Yeah"; as in = indicating agreement with your entire post.

I, like yourself, feel a slippery slope would evolve from governments or individuals having the authority to make a life or death decision over another human being BUT we already allow this to take place by ceding to governments or the state the authority to make life or death decisions regarding wars and institutionalizing some humans now.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:57 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,431,657 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
There is no such thing as "always" ... no such case of "never".

And this is a particularly sensitive area for me at the moment, but my story may offer some insight here, or at least a greater level of consideration, so I'll share it.

My Mom just passed a couple of weeks ago, and for 42 days prior, 3 trips between two different hospitals, a nursing home and a hospice, 5 moves in all, 50-60 different nurses, several different doctors, I tried without success to protect her best interests while seeking the best care, including the inability to convince the medical establishment to try alternative approaches, while also removing her from a hospice to prevent them from euthanizing her prematurely, as was their clear intent and efforts. It was a brutal 42 emotionally charged days, with not one day passing that some inappropriate level of care, or poor decision, or inaction wasn't experienced. Not one day!

It all started with her awakening with significant cognitive disruption in the early AM hours, and a rush to the hospital, who looked upon the initial symptoms as a possible stroke. After 8 days, they identified pneumonia and a mass in her lung, but no answer for the cognitive issues that were dismissed as age related, in spite of our insistence that this condition was abrupt, and not early stage dementia. She was ready for discharge and recommended to intensive inpatient (3 hour/day) rehab which was totally inappropriate for her physical and mental state, (she was very weak, and had difficulty in even using bathroom facilities with assistance) for which I intervened and had her transferred to a facility for less intense rehab. The discharge orders also included instructions to schedule a biopsy on the lung mass the following week, which I also rejected, given her weak state would not make her a candidate for conventional cancer therapy, so the wisdom was totally lacking in the advice to undergo a biopsy to identify lung cancer that could not be treated anyway (later confirmed as the proper decision by a couple of other doctors).

Back at the nursing facility, the same course was followed (though the level of care received was superior to the hospital) for 6 days, until she was found totally unresponsive and vital signs alarming, rushed to the emergency room of another hospital. There, finally the ER doctor put the pieces together ... the lung mass was causing an arrhythmia (a-fib) in her heart, which was causing disruption to oxygen levels, and hence the cognitive disruptions. Once the a-fib was brought back to a normal rhythm, the cognitive issues rapidly and dramatically improved, confirming the ER doctor's diagnosis. Once stabilized, she was placed in ICU, and there, she quickly made progress to be ready for discharge back to the nursing facility, armed with medication to keep her heart rhythm stabilized ... yet, in spite of the evidence, the specialists in ICU (Cardiologist, Pulmonologist, and Oncologist) told me that the lung had nothing to do with the cognitive disruption (as explained to me by the ER doctor). But they did have a very bleak prognosis for her, suggesting a few weeks to live, and not much more. What should a patient or their advocate believe, given so many disconnects and lack of proper diagnosis and advice? Yet, with all of that, the next decision was my greatest error in judgment, that I hope folks reading this will file away in case they are ever in this situation .... now enter the inpatient hospice care.

She was "accepted" at a hospice house based on this bleak diagnosis of only a few weeks to live. And this facility had the highest reputation (including an endorsement from a neighbor who actually works in the hospice field). There, my nightmare really began, just as Mom had regained her sharp mental state, we had devised a plan together to engage in some alternative nutritional treatment for her assumed (but not proven) lung cancer, given that there were no conventional therapies for which she could tolerate. We had nothing to lose, so that was the plan.

The Hospice House however, had another plan, and that plan was to immediately start their palliative care routine, regardless of Mom's actual status or our wishes as a family, and these efforts were quite covert, too, including the immediate removal (without our knowledge) of the heart rhythm stabilizing medication, and a full scale employment (pharmaceutical assault) of morphine treatment, in absence of pain. This morphine was being used as a "breathing aid", even though she had not actually experienced any significant labor in breathing at that point, requiring medication ... but soon after those treatments began, she did fall into labored breathing, (and almost 24 hour sleeping) which the staff there insisted was just symptoms of the rapid progression of the disease (in less than 48 hours, mind you). Of course, I put 2 + 2 together, and realized that morphine is a respiratory depressant, and that these treatments were the likely source of this rapid onset of labored breathing. Yet, no amount of rational discussion would deter them, forcing me to demand a meeting with the attending physician. At the conclusion of a not so friendly exchange in which I attempted to explain to him and his head of nursing that our goal was to provide her nutritional support known to assist in cancer cases, in hopes of extending her life, while having them there in case our efforts failed, I was told directly that "we are not in the business of rehabilitation!, period! And I was in the wrong place if that were our goal". (Of course this was 4 days into her stay there, and that's when it became evident to me why they constantly urged me not to make great efforts to provide her nutrition or liquids ... warning me about lung aspiration dangers, which Mom seemed to have no trouble swallowing food or liquid at all.)

At the conclusion of the meeting, they reluctantly agreed to cease the morphine treatments at my demand, until such time as pain became an issue and I specifically authorized it's use, and instead, any breathing treatment hence forth would be a dilator like Albuterol. So, over the next three days the Albuterol was required in every increasing frequency, or so I thought. On a Friday night (the meeting had been held on Wednesday morning) my sister asked the nurse administering the "breathing treatment" what exactly was being used (I assumed albuterol because that was all I had authorized in the meeting). The nurse responded matter of factly ... "Morphine". Absolutely dumbfounded, I immediately said, nurse, please remove that mask from my mother now. So this WITCH walks over and says as she's snatching the mask off Mom, "Mrs. X, I'm taking this off because your son doesn't want you to have a breathing treatment!! Furious rage held in check for that moment, I calmly said, Mom, I don't want you to have morphine as it will not help your breathing ... but I'm going to see that you get a proper medication to help your breathing. So .. these "medical professionals" lied to me, and continued dosing her with significant levels of morphine for three days AFTER they had promised to honor my demands and cease. And the whole while, Mom's breathing deteriorated and became too labored to actually take in nourishment or fluids.

At that point I marched out to the nurse's station, and issued them an ultimatum ...."the next person that administers that woman morphine will be hauled out of here in handcuffs by the Sheriff's department!" They angrily committed to no more morphine, claiming it was never listed on her chart not to give it ... and that they'd have to check with the doctor, that he would decide ... "He will decide? He will decide if she gets morphine or not? I don't think so nurse ... WE WILL DECIDE, the patient decides what medications she will accept, and I being the patient's advocate and medical power of attorney forbid you to administer morphine without our express permission. So, after being assured that no more morphine will be given, I leave for the night.

Next day ... I find out that just after I left, they, at the direction of the Doctor over the phone, administered Hydromorphone, which is a synthetic morphine that is 8 times stronger!!! At that point it was clear that their singular intent was to drug this woman to death, purposely, and that they had no intention of being honest with me, or honor our right to decide what was appropriate. Of course, that was the final straw, and her removal was our only recourse to this blatant violation of ethics and the damned laws of Texas.

Upon removal of her from this den of death loving ghouls and liars, and returning her to the previous nursing facility, that's when we discovered (in the discharge orders received) that she was immediately taken off the heart medication day one at the hospice, given not only morphine and hydromorphone, but 5 ... count them 5 different psychotropic drugs too ... including two heavy duty anti-psychotic drugs used for the treatment of schizophrenia patients. No wonder we couldn't keep her awake long enough or she had no energy or desire to take in nourishment. They had literally turned her into a zombie.

For the next few days, after detoxing from of all these drugs, she was far more aware and awake, and not needing nearly as much medication assistance in breathing ... but clearly her pneumonia had become much worse, being bombarded with drugs, no real nourishment for an extended period of a couple of weeks, and dehydrated. Her immune system was hammered, which was exactly counter to our efforts to strengthen it nutritionally. After about nine days back from the hospice, (and no significant labored breathing, mind you) her heart rate was found elevated to 155, and she was experiencing anxiety attacks ... the nurse thought it not to be of significance other than to administer an anti-anxiety (psychotropic) drug ... which I thought inappropriately nonchalant .... and demanded that the doctor be called and consulted. The doctor called in a team to do a ECG, and then decided that she needed to be transported back to the hospital ... the EMS tech (after getting the entire story) told me ... "good call. that heart rate is too high to be left untreated".

At the hospital it was determined that she was severely dehydrated which was causing the high heart rate, so IV's were done, and over the course of the next few days, her condition worsened, as the kidneys began to fail to eliminate, also symptomatic of extreme dehydration, coupled with her fragile state. Finally, on the last two days there, she began to experience her first signs of severe pain, as her body was starting to shut down, and that's when her attending physician and I had concluded that we were at the stage where palliative care was now called for ... and that decision is ultimately ... no matter how you characterize it ... assisting and hastening of death, because heavy opiates will indeed shut down the respiratory system as they mitigate pain. Such is the inherent nature of palliative care techniques, and such was the efforts immediately employed weeks before, prematurely by the Hospice.

The real point of this long story is, aside the multiple poor medical decisions, diagnosis' and less than helpful treatments (many of which I haven't touched upon here) outlined by the hospitals and nursing facility, the hospice people attempted to end her life purposely, quickly, and prematurely, even though she lived three more weeks, mostly pain free after removing her from their "care". I'm convinced that she would have lived much longer had she not had to endure the pharmacological assault and lack of nourishment and fluids imposed on her by these dealers of death at hospice, along with the attitudes obviosly embraced about the terminally diagnosed elderly.

It would be of noteworthy relevance to understand that patients of inpatient Hospice care have an average life expectancy of 7-8 days in hospice homes ... which might be the average length of time it takes to covertly euthanize these patients without actually shooting them in the head like lame horse.

(and you can read similar horror stories: Euthanasia and Hospice Information Center + articles - How to Stop Involuntary Euthanasia - Hospice Patients Alliance )

So I'm left with an empty feeling of what if ... and also a very real experience supporting the view that there is indeed widespread euthanasia being committed nationwide to terminally ill patients and how that can happen right in front of the unsuspecting, trusting loved ones and families of the ill. Believe me, they behaved with such a convincing bedside manner of care and compassion, that is, until I questioned their techniques and treatments ... then the true nature came forth and it was an ugly side indeed, to which all of the details have not been shared.

Also noteworthy, the Hospice literature provided by these hospice care facilities outline the "Common Stages" of death and what to expect in those last days and hours. Coincidentally, the multiple psychotropic drugs and morphine administered to my mother covertly and against my and her wishes, just so happen to mimic those very symptoms outlined in the hospice literature!! That's right, the common side effect of those drugs combined, cover virtually every symptom they claim are the common stages of terminally ill patients as they die naturally. Coincidence my arse.

The morral to this story is that trust in the medical establishment, and in the "state" to safeguard your loved one's best interests is a fools game, while human euthanasia seems to be a well established, albeit covertly practiced in plain sight to unsuspecting victims.

Now those in this field believe they are doing the right thing as they apparently believe in ending terminally ill patient's lives under the guise of palliative care before these patients experience the undesirable symptoms of actual last hours before death, to which palliative care has legitimate application. Just as damaging, this behavior actually prevented me from engaging in the alternative treatments for my mom which have in a number of cases shown miraculous results .... i.e. alkalizing green juices and high dose vitamin C treatments which I was unable to get anyone in the medical establishment to sponsor, or assist me with, while my efforts were coopted by covert actions. That is, until the last doctor on the scene actually took the time, and had an open enough mind to consult the literature and discuss and agree with trying these courses of action .. but Mom passed before we were able to start it.

Trust me when I tell you, not only are there effective alternative treatments to mainstream medical practices regarding terminally ill patients, but there is a concerted effort to deny such treatment effectiveness, while strenuous efforts are made to remove access to them, including recent FDA actions to shut down production of intravenous vitamin C products.

At the same time, everyone looks the other way as euthanasia is apparently being practiced on a wide scale .... while people denounce the actions of this caring mother who simply wants to do what's best for her now adult children suffering a virtual endless vegetative state.

How is this level of insanity and backwardness possible in a world that considers itself rational and well meaning? It is anything but that, and often the exact opposite.

Be warned ... only you and your loved ones can be trusted to decide what is in your own best interests ... and you'd better be prepared with adequate kowledge about any conditions you might suffer, because you cannot assume competence or honesty from the medical community, without the ability to verify.

I experienced lots of good nurses, and only a few bad ones .. but also a couple of demons. Same with the doctors, who often did not agree with each other, or really care enough to consult each other. To a few of them, my mother was nothing more than an opportunity to charge Medicare for doing virtually nothing. And that's the reality. The power to decide one's fate must be kept with the individual, and their advocates ... not the state, and certainly not the medical community.
GuyNTexas; your post describing your experience duplicated one I had involving my father back in 1988.

Upon diagnosis of liver cancer (spots visible on outside of the liver) he and I along with mum talked at length about his determination to fight this as he'd handled every other confrontation in his life. As a WWII vet who saw action in North Africa, France, Belgium, Holland, Liri Valley and Ortona in Italy and finally in Germany he knew what a fight was and how to prepare mentally for it.

The medical profession had other ideas and immediately started with the morphine protocols on the assumption pain would be unbearable. That stuff made him so darn nauseous he simply resorted to refusing it. His treatmnents were predicated on his cancer being detected while still not invasive but further tests revealed the liver spots were actually evidence of total invasion from within the liver emanating from the primary source, the pancreas.

He was now told he was terminal and the morphine protocol was "most strenuously advised" by hospital staff. He was adamant that his wishes be adhered to in his refusal of morphine until he could no longer stand the pain because he wanted to remain lucid and communicative with us till he could no longer stand it.

In short, his last days were sullied with him having to fight the very people who were tasked with making those days as comfortable for him as possible. They were simply adhering to the 90% rule of treating him exactly as the bulk of other patients; get them sedated, calm and pliable which ultimately makes their nursing work-day day easier and in terminal cases may hasten the end but they're terminal anyway, right?

You have been very charitable to all who engage in this practice but in my mind you were spot on in your assessment that euthanasia IS being practiced and has been for decades, they simply call it medicating!
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