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Please see post #444 regarding studies that are produced to push an agenda then explain why your uncle lived to such a ripe old age while he was the first hand smoker.
I would guess only God knows why some people are afflicted with the genes they are born with.
I only know it makes me very sick and I get a headache if I'm in a smoky room for more than a few minutes. I don't have any "agenda" to push. I don't go to bars, so really I don't care who the hell smokes in them. I was responding to the other posts that claim 2nd hand smoke isn't harmful. I'm also not a religious fanatic, but my quotes from the Bible were in response to a member's user name which I find offensive. However, if it's allowed on this website, I'm not in charge, so it's not my call.
Last edited by justNancy; 05-13-2012 at 02:21 PM..
Reason: fix spelling from smokey to smoky
The problem with smoking bans is that they intrude on personal liberty and ignore free market solutions that work just as well. A bar owner who has a handful of customers who like to smoke inside is not going to have a profitable business if most of his customers are irritated by the smokers and prefer to enjoy a smoke free atmosphere. The solution to accomadate those customers is to request that the smokers go outside. If the smokers are unhappy with this - they are free to not patronize the bar - and the owner will weigh the loss of their money to the benefits of pleasing his non-smoking clientele. Or - he(I am using the generic "he" for convenience - don't jump on me for not being gender neutral!) can build a pleasant outdoor smoking area so that smokers and non-smokers are separated and none feels that they are outcasts. In fact - that is exactly what has occurred recently - and the bars that provide outdoor smoking patios have experienced great success - and are clearly providing smokers with an incentive to frequent their business. But why couldn't this have happened without smoking bans?
Consider the opposite scenario: most of the clientele are smokers - and if the owner tells them to go outside they are going to leave. But if a smoking ban is in place - they can't go to a more "friendly" bar - so they go home. The heavy handed regulation has produced a negative result - people won't go to bars because they can't smoke, the bars lose money - end up going out of business - people become unemployed - and the governments lose tax revenue. Everyone loses.
Free market solutions always provide better outcomes than intrusive regulations and bans. They ensure an equal distribution of options to satisfy everyone - the smokers will either have bars where they can smoke indoors or outdoor patios - and the non-smokers can withhold business from locations that refuse to accomadate them - and they will end up with non-smoking venues to enjoy. No intrusive, liberty robbing, big government ban needed.
The problem with smoking bans is that they intrude on personal liberty and ignore free market solutions that work just as well. A bar owner who has a handful of customers who like to smoke inside is not going to have a profitable business if most of his customers are irritated by the smokers and prefer to enjoy a smoke free atmosphere. The solution to accomadate those customers is to request that the smokers go outside. If the smokers are unhappy with this - they are free to not patronize the bar - and the owner will weigh the loss of their money to the benefits of pleasing his non-smoking clientele. Or - he(I am using the generic "he" for convenience - don't jump on me for not being gender neutral!) can build a pleasant outdoor smoking area so that smokers and non-smokers are separated and none feels that they are outcasts. In fact - that is exactly what has occurred recently - and the bars that provide outdoor smoking patios have experienced great success - and are clearly providing smokers with an incentive to frequent their business. But why couldn't this have happened without smoking bans?
Consider the opposite scenario: most of the clientele are smokers - and if the owner tells them to go outside they are going to leave. But if a smoking ban is in place - they can't go to a more "friendly" bar - so they go home. The heavy handed regulation has produced a negative result - people won't go to bars because they can't smoke, the bars lose money - end up going out of business - people become unemployed - and the governments lose tax revenue. Everyone loses.
Free market solutions always provide better outcomes than intrusive regulations and bans. They ensure an equal distribution of options to satisfy everyone - the smokers will either have bars where they can smoke indoors or outdoor patios - and the non-smokers can withhold business from locations that refuse to accomadate them - and they will end up with non-smoking venues to enjoy. No intrusive, liberty robbing, big government ban needed.
Excellent post, it shows common sense that really seems to be lacking sometimes these days.
The smoking patios work fine in areas that have great weather year round but if you have four seasons...not so much.
I still have to chuckle when so many non smokers are continuously found on the smoking patios. I've been to places that only had a small patio and requested that the non smokers leave the area so the smokers could have the seats but people said it wasn't fair to deny the non smokers from entering the area.
When I was younger, I had to stop going out on the weekends or after work with friends or coworkers. I was sometimes invited to parties where people smoked and had to leave. Of course they stopped inviting me. I would never allow people who smoke in my car or my home, so that unfortunately eliminated some people who were chain smokers. I couldn't make exceptions, since my furniture smelled even if they didn't smoke in the house. Smoke gets in your hair and clothing. Sad, isn't it, that something so small can control a person's life?
I don't know how regulations can be intrusive if they're protecting my rights. That is, unless you feel you have more rights than I do.
Edit: I married a smoker, so I am not prejudiced against smokers. I even smoked until I was 23. However, after we got divorced, my sensitivity to it became much more extreme, probably because I wasn't around smokers so much. I can't even walk by someone who is smoking in front of a store. I am editing, because I've written in earlier threads that I was a smoker (not only cigarettes) when I was in high school and college. By "younger" I was talking about my late 30s and 40s.
I just can't understand why people are so selfish. I would never do anything that I knew caused other people harm just to satisfy a craving. Again, if this is just about bars, not restaurants or public places, I don't care if people smoke. In fact, I wish they'd keep it inside, not on outdoor patios. I went to the supermarket the other day and made the mistake of parking near a diner with a couple of outside tables. Someone was smoking and it was difficult to walk past her, although I held my hand over my mouth and nose.
Last edited by justNancy; 05-13-2012 at 02:39 PM..
Reason: see section with "edit"
I don't know how regulations can be intrusive if they're protecting my rights. That is, unless you feel you have more rights than I do.
What "rights" do smoking bans protect? And how do you mesh your opinion with the fact that smoking bans intrude on other people's rights? You cannot insist that someone operate their business in a matter pleasing to you - and call that just.
When I was younger, I had to stop going out on the weekends or after work with friends or coworkers. I was sometimes invited to parties where people smoked and had to leave. Of course they stopped inviting me. I would never allow people who smoke in my car or my home, so that unfortunately eliminated some people who were chain smokers. I couldn't make exceptions, since my furniture smelled even if they didn't smoke in the house. Smoke gets in your hair and clothing. Sad, isn't it, that something so small can control a person's life?
I don't know how regulations can be intrusive if they're protecting my rights. That is, unless you feel you have more rights than I do.
Nope, I feel that you have every right to steer clear of smokers in any way you choose to.
And I feel if a business owner allows smoking in his/her establishment there should be a law against anyone forcing you to go there. I would stand behind you all the way.
I have an allergy to perfume. I avoid it. Pretty simple.
Unfortunately, most smokers don't keep their filthy habit inside. They toss their butts out of the car window, leave them on the beach, and throw them into shrubs. I used to work in a large office building and the smokers would all run outside to suck in their poison. The shrubs were littered with cigarette butts. I've seen people put them out on sidewalks and in elevators. I often wonder what kind of pig sties these people live in, since they don't seem to have any respect for public or private property.
Then there's the effect on the environment. 62 of the approx 4,000 chemical compounds in cigarettes have been known to cause cancer in both humans and animals. These chemicals are released into the ground and our water supplies. I've seen the tons (yes tons) of cigarettes smokers leave in the sand. They get into our beautiful Gulf and, even worse, the stomachs of birds, fish, and marine mammals that ingest them.
Sure, if there was a way to avoid cigarettes, I'd be all for it. When you find one, let me know.
Unfortunately, most smokers don't keep their filthy habit inside. They toss their butts out of the car window, leave them on the beach, and throw them into shrubs. I used to work in a large office building and the smokers would all run outside to suck in their poison. The shrubs were littered with cigarette butts. I've seen people put them out on sidewalks and in elevators. I often wonder what kind of pig sties these people live in, since they don't seem to have any respect for public or private property.
Then there's the effect on the environment. 62 of the approx 4,000 chemical compounds in cigarettes have been known to cause cancer in both humans and animals. These chemicals are released into the ground and our water supplies. I've seen the tons (yes tons) of cigarettes smokers leave in the sand. They get into our beautiful Gulf and, even worse, the stomachs of birds, fish, and marine mammals that ingest them.
Sure, if there was a way to avoid cigarettes, I'd be all for it. When you find one, let me know.
Of course we all know that all smokers are litter bugs and no one else on earth would even consider participating in that nasty habit.
Well, there is a law against littering but I guess it isn't working out so well.
I think smoking gives men that macho attiude and makes women sexy. What do you think? If America doesn't have socialized healthcare, why should the Government (stateside, county, local) prevent its citziens to smoke wherever they want?
I think it makes men and women smell worse than open sewer, and I think it's tough to be macho when you get winded by a flight of stairs, and it's hard to be sexy with smoker's wrinkles around your lips.
Local should be allowed to regulate it because cities, towns, and counties are small collectives. States should be allowed to regulate because they're big collectives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier
What "rights" do smoking bans protect?
Right to peaceful enjoyment of property.
Quote:
And how do you mesh your opinion with the fact that smoking bans intrude on other people's rights? You cannot insist that someone operate their business in a matter pleasing to you - and call that just.
If the business is a corporation, the owner trades protection from personal liability for personal freedom.
Last edited by The Homogenizer; 05-13-2012 at 03:51 PM..
We all have pet peeves. That's part of being human.
We used to be able to tolerate the fact that we aren't all alike.
I'm a smoker but I don't litter. If I see someone drop trash I go pick it up and put it in a trash can. I don't let the habits of others, that I may not like, consume me. I do what I can to make things the way I prefer them and live my own life.
People that get behind causes to the point of distraction could very well be missing out on a lot of pleasant things in life.
This is not aimed at you, I'm just saying people need to lighten up and live their own lives. I have enough problems of my own, I don't need to solve other peoples problems too.
Well said.
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Hit 'n' run post
