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Old 05-11-2012, 10:52 PM
 
29,419 posts, read 18,730,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruxan View Post
your going to have a lot of water problems extracting that shale oil

Water Scarcity and the Western Oil Shales - NYTimes.com
We have a lot of problems drilling a thousand feet into the ocean too.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:53 PM
 
29,419 posts, read 18,730,748 times
Reputation: 5437
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
What the heck are we trying to discuss? Oil shale? The amount of oil there? The GAO? Obama? Testimony before Congress? Extraction techniques?

What IS your point here and what are you trying to say?
You don't get it. I'm not trying to discuss anything with you.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,664,473 times
Reputation: 7720
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
You don't get it. I'm not trying to discuss anything with you.
You're right. I don't get it. But...it's your thread and if I don't get it, it's hardly MY fault....is it?
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:55 PM
 
8,561 posts, read 5,448,976 times
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Water scarcity is a very serious issue out West. People need water to live. Not so much with oil.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:59 PM
 
29,419 posts, read 18,730,748 times
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WATER

Water requirement estimates for oil shale production vary widely from nearly zero to over 7 barrels of water per barrel of oil.
  • The Unconventional Fuels Task Force uses 1 - 2 barrels of water per barrel of oil in their estimates.
  • Some pilot projects are actually producing water from their operations. Deep groundwater is found in oil shale formations. This water is unsuitable for human consumption, but appropriate for oil shale production.
  • Several commonly-used estimates put water usage at 3:1.
  • A very recent study uses a 1.7:1 ratio (August 2010, Colorado River Basin Rountable). This number was used in the 2011 Update to the Statewide Water Supply Initiative of the Colorado River Conservation District. Under their "High-Growth" scenario, by 2050 we would have a 550,000 barrel per day oil shale industry using about 45,000 acre-feet of water per year.
  • At a 1.7:1 ratio, the Colorado River Roundtable estimates that a large-scale oil shale industry, producing 1.5 million barrels of oil per day, would require about 120,000 acre-feet per year. Spread across Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming, this appears to be very sustainable.
  • At a 3:1 ratio, the National Oil Shale Association (www.oilshaleassoc.org) estimates an oil shale industry that produces 500,000 barrels of oil per day (or over 182 million barrels per year) would utilize 70,000 acre-feet per year.
  • The Department of Energy estimates that oil shale production will use between 1 and 2 barrels of water per barrel of oil. Under their assumptions, even a large industry that produces 1 million barrels per day (365 million barrels per year) would use between 100,000 and 170,000 acre-feet per year.
This is not to say oil shale will use no water. Oil shale will use water. We just have to decide whether it is worth it. It is the opinion of ECCOS, that there is likely water available for a viable oil shale industry, if we choose to use some of our available water for energy. In the meantime, we should continue to study the issue.
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:26 AM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,427,188 times
Reputation: 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
I read this part:

Environmental impacts on water, air, and wildlife. Developing oil shale
resources poses significant environmental challenges, particularly for
water quantity and quality but also for air and wildlife.

• Water quantity. Oil shale development could have significant
impacts on the quantity of surface and groundwater resources, but
the magnitude of these impacts is unknown because of the
technological uncertainties, and also because the size of a future
oil shale industry is unknown, and knowledge of current water
conditions and groundwater flow is limited. Developing oil shale
and providing power for oil shale operations and other associated
activities will require significant amounts of water, which could
pose problems, particularly in the arid West where an expanding
population is already placing additional demands on available
water resources. For example, some analysts project that large
scale oil shale development within Colorado could require more
water than is currently supplied to over 1 million residents of the
Denver metro area and that water diverted for oil shale operations
would restrict agricultural and urban development.
The potential
demand for water is further complicated by the past decade of drought
in the West and projections of a warming climate in the future.


That is on Page 6 of the GAO report (or Page 10 if you are using Acrobat).

Restrict agricultural development? Sure, I vote for paying more money for food stuffs so I can have expensive gasoline.

Reading...

Mircea
I am interested in reading that projection analysis. I find that "projections", especially when they concern very political topics, tend to be poorly established.

Last edited by Nomander; 05-12-2012 at 08:07 AM..
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Ohio
19,916 posts, read 14,235,190 times
Reputation: 16096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
I am interested in reading that projection analysis. I find that "projections", especially when they concern very political topics, tend to be poorly established.
You can find the GAO report here:

http://science.house.gov/sites/repub...l-20120510.pdf

Analyzing...

Mircea


Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
I guess you skipped the "opportunities" part.

Of course if it were easy it would have already been done.
Energy development is Capital intensive. It will suck Capital out of the Market. Can't exactly build a manufacturing base if energy is consuming all of the Capital, right?

So you have two groups competing for the same Capital, which might be very scarce. Supply of Capital is static/declining/slow growth and the Demand is High. What happens to the price/cost of Capital? It goes up. You pay more as a result.

There's a really easy solution to this: Find an alternative to the combustion engine.

Hopping and skipping....

Mircea
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:46 AM
 
Location: London, U.K.
2,877 posts, read 3,301,566 times
Reputation: 1589
Eroei.......
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:08 PM
 
24,008 posts, read 11,930,026 times
Reputation: 10199
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
You're just now finding this out? It's been known for more than 20 years, but so far, the best economic recovery model is to simply dig it up and that would essentially destroy that portion of the Rocky Mountains.

You OK with that?
How would it be destroyed?

Drill, baby, drill.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Florida
21,660 posts, read 11,125,856 times
Reputation: 7888
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
I read this part:

Environmental impacts on water, air, and wildlife. Developing oil shale
resources poses significant environmental challenges, particularly for
water quantity and quality but also for air and wildlife.

Water quantity. Oil shale development could have significant
impacts on the quantity of surface and groundwater resources, but
the magnitude of these impacts is unknown because of the
technological uncertainties, and also because the size of a future
oil shale industry is unknown, and knowledge of current water
conditions and groundwater flow is limited. Developing oil shale
and providing power for oil shale operations and other associated
activities will require significant amounts of water, which could
pose problems, particularly in the arid West where an expanding
population is already placing additional demands on available
water resources. For example, some analysts project that large
scale oil shale development within Colorado could require more
water than is currently supplied to over 1 million residents of the
Denver metro area and that water diverted for oil shale operations
would restrict agricultural and urban development.
The potential
demand for water is further complicated by the past decade of drought
in the West and projections of a warming climate in the future.


That is on Page 6 of the GAO report (or Page 10 if you are using Acrobat).

Restrict agricultural development? Sure, I vote for paying more money for food stuffs so I can have expensive gasoline.

Reading...

Mircea
Tell that to the millions of people out of work.
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