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Old 06-02-2012, 12:19 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,450,300 times
Reputation: 22471

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
I don't think government provides much of anything except layers of bureaucratic frustration and nonsense. But I can tell you that government's very definition is to serve a society in its needs and provide protection from harm.

It's science:
Mankind is a social animal.
Social animals do not exist by sacrificing the many for the benefit of the few.

Penalize work and success? If it results in the kind of unearned arrogance you project, yeah, good idea. Let's go back to hunting and gathering in small tribes. Fine by me. You wouldn't last a week. You haven't a clue about true survival. If you did you wouldn't post the judgmental nonsense you constantly spew.
It's a very foolish government that tries to tear down it's hardest working, most productive portions of society and pay the least capable, the least able to breed and that's what we have.

The government has attempted to replace the father -- most of the 40% of babies that are now being born into welfare handouts are of course born to unwed mothers -- "single homemakers" on their welfare application forms.

The government is actually creating this mess by rewarding irresponsibility and stupidity -- not that people don't make mistakes, they can and they can recover from their mistakes but the government discourages that and encourages more stupidity and mistakes.

The problem with liberals is that no matter what, they cannot see the problem in putting more and more people onto government programs. They really believe that the sky is the limit.

Reality is coming -- whether you like it or not.
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,348,841 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc1 View Post
Right.

How great is one's is life when one is financially deep in the hole?

I'm not throwing rocks at CA for I live in NJ and our Democrat machine polticians try out-doing your politicians in terms of so-called progressive policies sending us down the financial rathole.

We're the highest taxed population in the nation and broke.

Top that, CA!!
When California and New Jersey were first created they were given a choice between having the most garbage, or having the most lawyers. This is why New Jersey is noted for having the most garbage - they got first pick.

Actually, I enjoyed living in the Pine Barrens of southern New Jersey. A very pretty area.

As far as taxes are concerned, there are 710,000 Alaskans, 123,000 of them in the workforce, and a State budget of $12.1 billion.

That is $98,373.98 for every Alaskan in the workforce, or $17,042.25 for every man, woman, and child in Alaska. And that is every year. That does not include property taxes or local sales taxes.

Alaskans would love a State government that only spent, on a per capita basis, what either New Jersey or California spends.
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Old 06-02-2012, 05:08 PM
 
8,483 posts, read 6,901,043 times
Reputation: 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Nonsense. If used properly most forms of birth control work most of the time. I would think the worse the economy gets the better choices parents would make like not producing more children they can't afford to care for themselves. That is the responsible way. I am tired of these strawman arguments about big corporations and governments ripping us off. Yes, that needs to stop but that in no way excuses irresponsible behavior from the masses.
Nothing I said wasn't based on evidence. The arguments aren't strawman. I am not telling people to abdicate personal responsibility, on the contrary. For you to think that is what I was saying seems odd to me, a bit extreme.

More and more are losing control over their lives and ability to survive. When you are trained to hand over control and to get permission for everything, that doesn't promote personal responsibility. The corporate model itself abdicates personal responsibility behind a veil of fiction. Our govt and corps get away with literally murder and no penalties for it.

The idea about a bad economy being a "good" thing simply doesn't show up in studies that have been done. Countries where standards of living are better show decrease in birthrates. Once you get beyond a survival mentality you can make better choices.
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Old 06-02-2012, 05:22 PM
 
8,483 posts, read 6,901,043 times
Reputation: 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Go for it -- destroying all business is extremely foolish. You want to penalize work and success. You want to chase out the corporations? Drive up unemployment? Then what?

Your problem is you truly believe that it's the government that provides all. You don't see that it's business, jobs, employers, work that keeps things going.
Here is what you are missing from my view. We are talking simple systems models.
The govt validates it's existence and need for more by having such programs. They are constantly creating more programs, agencies, funds and regulations to go with them.

Businesses are not bad. Small business is very important. However, what has happened is the Big Gov and Big Corp are integrated. This is the issue.

I think people get bi-polar on these issues swinging into black and white mode.

I have no issue with a legit business creating a legit product or svc. That is a wonderful thing that promotes personal responsibility. I recommend everybody do it.

Most if not all publicly traded companies have controlling shares in govt funds. This makes the govt the controlling shareholder. This is why the corps and wall street can poison and maim and be bailed out with no consequences. This is what has helped create and maintain the 1%.

This is why the FED, JPM et al can control the market and the currency value. This is creating an unhealthy environment for everyone with unhealthy consequences.
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:56 PM
 
28,107 posts, read 63,410,741 times
Reputation: 23222
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Dont most public education come from local property taxes, and not the state taxes? I know around here they do, so I'm not sure what people willing to pay more locally, has to do with the states financial problems.
Prior to Prop 13 and the Serrano Decision which greatly helped Prop 13 become law... most school funding was local.

Serrano changed that by sending local tax dollars to Sacramento to allocate for schools throughout the State.

It was one thing to pay high property taxes for great local schools and another to have local money be diverted.

Another point is Prop 13 is mostly out of the equation for school infrastructure because only 55% voter approval is required instead of Prop 13 two-thirds.
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:58 PM
 
28,107 posts, read 63,410,741 times
Reputation: 23222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Beebe View Post
Forty years of ballot initiative processes (Prop 1, etc.) that have hamstrung state legislature from raising taxes to keep revenue apace with spending. Allowing voters to vote on tax increases is an asinine way to run a government.
A benevolent Dictatorship is so much more efficient...
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Old 06-03-2012, 05:45 PM
 
20,222 posts, read 19,782,458 times
Reputation: 13283
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
That depends on your expectations and how you've got your head screwed on ...
How much does living simplistically cost?
How much do healthy personal habits cost?
How much does it cost to love and be loved?
How much do you have to pay for a good attitude?
What's the going rate for watching the world as entertainment?

Here's a link and some excerpts from a great story printed in the L.A. Times last year about just this subject ... Dare you to read and laugh at this man's success:

For 35 years Reuben Pardo has operated the same elevator in an Art Deco building on Wilshire Blvd. A marvelous story of happiness in a life of ups and downs. How to live without money controlling your sense of happiness and worth -- even in California:

COLUMN ONE: Elevator operator's overriding story: joy - latimes.com

"His brother became a public defender. One sister is an accountant. The other retired as a pharmacist assistant. "Everybody had a good position and guess what? They all got houses and three cars, four cars in the garage. And I'm the one with the little apartment," Pardo says.

"But we are happy. Me and my wife, we are really happy.... As long as you're happy, as long as you are full of happiness, that's all that matters."


He and Trudy married in 1972. They have one son, 29, and one granddaughter, 11.

Trudy, retired from Carl's Junior, keeps the house and cooks the food.

And on his day off, Pardo celebrates her.

They ride the bus around, "MTA cruising." They go to a restaurant.

"I take her out every Sunday so she can relax," he says. "That's my personal gift to her until God takes us away."

On Saturday night, the two choose their Sunday spot. It could be Denny's or IHOP or Norm's.

Each week until they decide, it's a delicious surprise.

"I love my small, little world."
Great story. I love my small little world too.

Don't see where it puts a positive spin on a state that is so rich yet from a fiscal standpoint horribly mismanaged.

Last edited by doc1; 06-03-2012 at 05:57 PM..
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Old 06-03-2012, 05:55 PM
 
20,222 posts, read 19,782,458 times
Reputation: 13283
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDusr View Post
How do you know if NJ is broke? I seriously doubt it.
Billions in the hole with unfunded liabilities yet #1 in tax burden on it's populous.

Not a considered a good thing to many of NJ's private sector taxpayers.
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Old 06-03-2012, 06:04 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,842,546 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
A benevolent Dictatorship is so much more efficient...
True dat ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc1 View Post
Great story. I love my small little world too.

Don't see where it puts a positive spin on a state that is so rich yet from a fiscal standpoint horribly mismanaged.
The point isn't to put the spin on the state of California ... but rather the spin on the state of your mind.

Most people think most of their states are horribly mismanaged.
And they're right.
Priority is management of your own heart and mind.
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Old 06-03-2012, 06:12 PM
 
8,483 posts, read 6,901,043 times
Reputation: 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc1 View Post
Billions in the hole with unfunded liabilities yet #1 in tax burden on it's populous.

Not a considered a good thing to many of NJ's private sector taxpayers.
Is that budget or CAFR? I haven't looked at a recent CAFR for NJ state, but last I looked they were far from broke.
I can set my budget, but doesn't show my real wealth. Jeesh NJ had Corzine in ofc, right?

For all of these states only people are going to get them to stop screwing taxpayers. I don't see how you can have a real conversation about finances discussing just a small part of the financial picture.

Yeah NJ looks to be more convoluted than most. In general, with state CAFRs I have observed some require special reports and others don't seem to carry totals forward from yr to yr.
This main CAFR link actually shows budget first. Then they break the CAFR down. The more they breakdown all these CAFRs into smaller pieces the harder it is to add up.

Here is a 2011.
Main Menu
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/omb/...dex.shtml#cafr
Basic:
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/omb/...f/finstats.pdf
Combined:
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/omb/...bgfinstats.pdf

This is a breakdown from 2003, which can help understand the CAFRs. This site is defunct because the guy died.
http://www.cafrman.com/Articles/Art-NJ-S1.htm
There you go. Looks like TPs in NJ are seriously being taken for a ride. Most of these changes seem to have happened in the 90's.
quote:
But somewhere along the way the funds brought forward category was lost. In accounting, the previous years' revenues are no longer called revenue but have been converted to Cash and Investments. Since they no longer called Revenues governments have forgotten about them to the public. They are there but not considered in the budget process, but should be.

Last edited by CDusr; 06-03-2012 at 07:10 PM..
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