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Old 10-14-2012, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Steeler Nation
6,868 posts, read 3,945,455 times
Reputation: 1596

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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Selling Big Mortality Numbers to Sell Flu Vaccine

There was only one deadly influenza pandemic in the last 100 years that killed the young and healthy in great numbers and that was the 1918 Spanish Flu. It turns out that bacterial pneumonia is what killed most people, young or old, in the 1918 pandemic. Today, antibiotics would have prevented most of those deaths.26

Counting Influenza Deaths & A Whole Lot More
In 2003, CDC employees also used a convoluted statistical modeling scheme to "estimate" that 36,000 people die from influenza in the U.S. every year. Again, they counted not just influenza death cases but also threw in other respiratory, circulatory, cardiac and pulmonary deaths they thought might have been associated with influenza.31
And they got away with it.
NVIC Vaccine News
Evere hear the old saying, "an ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure"

 
Old 10-14-2012, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,419 posts, read 28,272,492 times
Reputation: 28995
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDusr View Post
The immune system is what mitigates infection and responses. So saying a vaccine prevents disease or that Vit D does is inaccurate imo.

Symptoms and how those occur in different individuals is also important. One can target pathogens in different ways and this is done in the first place due to the "damage" reactions or "symptoms" may cause.
Vaccines do prevent disease. That is a fact, not an opinion.

It may be not that vitamin D prevents disease but that people who are deficient are more susceptible to infections.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,419 posts, read 28,272,492 times
Reputation: 28995
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Parents, you can get the latest info on vaccines here.
National Vaccine Information Center

Some links for exemption info at Vaccinerights.com and vaclib.org


How to Get Vaccine Exemptions - YouTube

Things are getting very crazy in California. They are now requiring parents to seek permission from a doctor for an exemption. That means you have to pay for an apptmt. and he/she gets to decide if your worthy of an exemption or not.
NVIC Vaccine News
NVIC Vaccine News

Find out what your rights are in your state.
If you do not want to vaccinate, you do not have to do so. The rest of us have the right to tell you what can happen if you do not and to limit the access of unvaccinated people to social situations where they increase the risk of exposing others to disease.

If you do not want to vaccinate, home school your child.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,419 posts, read 28,272,492 times
Reputation: 28995
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Selling Big Mortality Numbers to Sell Flu Vaccine

There was only one deadly influenza pandemic in the last 100 years that killed the young and healthy in great numbers and that was the 1918 Spanish Flu. It turns out that bacterial pneumonia is what killed most people, young or old, in the 1918 pandemic. Today, antibiotics would have prevented most of those deaths.26

Counting Influenza Deaths & A Whole Lot More
In 2003, CDC employees also used a convoluted statistical modeling scheme to "estimate" that 36,000 people die from influenza in the U.S. every year. Again, they counted not just influenza death cases but also threw in other respiratory, circulatory, cardiac and pulmonary deaths they thought might have been associated with influenza.31
And they got away with it.
NVIC Vaccine News
And when the antibiotics do not work, what do we do? The more we use antibiotics, the sooner bacteria learn how to defeat them.

And since you distrust the pharmaceutical industry so much, why do you believe in antibiotics? Why is it all right to take them, and why is it all right for drug companies to make money off of them and not vaccines?

If someone gets the flu and dies from a complication of the flu that they would not have had if they did not catch the flu, that death is rightfully counted as a flu death.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 11:25 AM
 
51,940 posts, read 41,806,773 times
Reputation: 32403
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
The level of hypocrisy and irony is thick enough to cut with a knife by claiming some impropriety involving funding of Wakefield's research, while ignoring that pharmaceutical companies spend hundreds of Millions annually to pay for the safety research on their own products, or the hundreds of Millions spent on television, magazine and journal advertising and direct marketing of their poisons, and the ten's of Millions in political contributions to secure sweetheart deals on the floor of congress, and the revolving door they keep active between executive positions on their staffs and the important figures operating the regulatory agencies tasked with policing them .... and you raise the big red flag of 1/2 Million contributed to Wakefield in the face of all that? Half a Million wouldn't cover 1 executive Christmas bonus check at Merck, for God's sake.

[MOD CUT]
It's too bad you don't know anything about the word "disclosure".

Non-disclosure of conflict like that means the end of the career for researchers and everyone knows it.

Seriously, it's like Pete Rose betting on baseball and you excusing it because well lots of people bet on baseball.

I guess in your world the trial lawyers should be able to hand 500k to the judge on the case and that they shouldn't disclose it either.

Have you no grasp of basic ethics? Have you not followed the Wakefield case?
 
Old 10-14-2012, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,419 posts, read 28,272,492 times
Reputation: 28995
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post

You said route doesn't matter, which is 100% incorrect. Like I said, if route and response caliber did not matter, then you could give any immunization of any strength through any route. But we all know that isn't true, because what you said simply isn't true. You need a high enough dose, usually a repeated dose, and usually injected to stimulate a strong enough immune response to trigger antibody production and confer immunity. Many things "interact" with the immune system, not all of them trigger a systemic antibody response that results in longer-term immunity. Your claim that any amount of antigen exposed to any part of the immune system by any route will create an anti-body and long-term immune response is 100% untrue and people reading this don't need to know anything about immunology to know that. For example, (an example, as in one example of many, something you have had trouble with in previous posts), you can kiss a person with HIV and not develop HIV. There is no question that HIV is present in the saliva of an infected person. The non-infected person is "exposed". The virus will clearly interact with the immune system of the non-infected person (probably with IGA and other immune components). The non-infected person will not become infected. There is no significant exposure; hence, there is no significant immune response. No measurable amount of anti-hiv antibody is produced. No memory cells are produce, the non-infected person is not HIV positive. You need a significant exposure to create a significant response and create anti-bodies, memory cells and long-term immunity. It's really a very simple and fundamental concept and if you don't understand that then I don't know what else to tell you. You don't develop antibodies and memory cells to every, single minute organism that every comes in contact with the immune system in any way. Again, if that was the case then people would test positive for everything all the time. There is a local response, and there is a systemic, serious response. You need a systemic response, which is why you need to inject antigen in a relatively high dose, or the vaccine doesn't work. Some vaccines you can inhale (usually when the pathogen enters the body naturally from that route, such as influenza). But to say that you can develop antibodies to anything by "ingesting" it is completely untrue. Maybe botulism or some other spore-forming bacillus that won't be destroyed by your stomach acid before it hits your intestine... but disease entry routes are specific, and vaccines either have to take the same entry route or be injected directly into the body. That is how they work; I thought you know this, but I guess I was wrong.
No, I said the route is tailored to the vaccine. You think that injecting a vaccine is somehow "unnatural." It is not. It is just another way to get the antigen to the immune system.

Yes, you do develop an immune response to every organism that comes in contact with the immune system. The immune system is constantly scavenging them up and trashing them. That is why you did not get sepsis from ordinary exposures to bacteria every day, whether in your food or from minor injuries. So your whole understanding of how the immune system works is based on faulty premises. Yes, you can develop antibodies to things you ingest. That is how food allergies develop. Do you not think food allergies exist? And the oral polio vaccine is, by definition, "ingested". That is what "oral" means. The gut is an important player in the immune system. It's what keeps the normal bacterial population of the intestine inside the intestine. If you do not know that, you do not know as much about how the immune system works as you think you do.

http://anhi.org/learning/pdfs/bcdeck...of_the_Gut.pdf

"The intestinal immune system constantly monitors intestinal antigens. Protective immune defenses are launched against potential pathogens, while a number of active processes ensure tolerance toward dietary antigens and the microbiota [normal intestinal bacteria]. Abrogation of this tolerance may result in food hypersensitivity reactions or IBD [inflammatory bowel disease].

Injecting a vaccine is just another way to introduce the antigen into the body. And it does not require the massive dose you appear to think it does.

We do not normally introduce food directly into a vein, but if we cannot eat for some reason, we can be given all the nutrients we need by that route. Do you consider that "unnatural"? If so, it works anyway.

The ideas of "serious immune response" and "significant exposure" are your own constructions. They are not terms used by immunologists.

There is nothing somehow sinister about injecting a vaccine.

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 10-14-2012 at 12:05 PM..
 
Old 10-14-2012, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,419 posts, read 28,272,492 times
Reputation: 28995
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
True. Secondary infection from pneumonia is the big killer when it comes to influenza, something that could be prevented today. Hyperthermia and dehydration could have also played a role, but those too can be dealt with. It is unlikely that we would have another significant influenza outbreak with such terrible results. Scare tactics and dogma. There is money to be made in the flu area. There are a group of scientists out there who are scaring up grant money for "bird flu" research. Grant money is big issue in science and can cause undue influence.
The cost of treating the pneumonias and other complications from flu greatly exceeds the cost of the vaccine.

There's plenty of money to be made in hospital care and other medications if people are not vaccinated.

The cost benefit equation favors vaccines.

You cannot carp about the cost of vaccines and ignore the cost of getting sick if you are not vaccinated.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 12:13 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
Reputation: 33064
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post

Exactly. You were not infected because the innate immune system and possibly other general parts of your adaptive dispatched the HIV before it could infect you. The HIV interacted with the immune system, no question. But it did not infect you. Once a pathogen overruns the local or innate (general) immune system and infects you, then your body produces a adaptive response, which is where your systemic response comes in along with antibody and memory cell production. This is basic immunology and not my opinion:

How Pathogenic Viruses Work - Lauren Sompayrac - Google Books

(page 11)

Your body responds with the adaptive, specific immune system when the pathogen gets past your innate immune system and threatens infection. That doesn't happen with everything you come in contact with. Infection is fairly rare. Again, this where you develop a fever because you have been infected; it is also where the adaptive immune system takes over and develops antibodies. That's why you don't develop antibodies in the above example. It's why you need to inject or otherwise properly deliver a vaccine at a high enough dose to produce an adaptive response. You are inducing an infection because you want the response. Of course, vaccines contain either killed or attenuated viruses (or DNA analogs), so you don't usually develop a real infection, but your body needs to think that the innate immune system has been overrun and you have been infected. Infection and its related adaptive immune response are relatively rare. When you give 26 vaccines in one day, your body believes it was infected with 26 different pathogens at once. That is not a normal biological condition.

Also, a graduated immune response is not my opinion. The body responds more vigorously to a more serious infection, especially a blood or deep tissue infection. Fevers are usually higher with blood infections, white blood cell counts are generally higher when infection is more severe. This very basic human physiology, it's not my opinion. If your body's response was not relative to the threat level, you would die, or you would feel sick all the time. When you inject a large number of pathogens directly into the deep muscle and they enter the blood stream your body responds accordingly.
OR, you were not exposed in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
I didn't say that. What I said was we probably would not see another 1918 style influenza outbreak that results in so much morbidity and mortality. There are other ways to prevent influenza, like vitamin D (which you and suzy dismissed for no good reason); handwashing; exercise; general health upkeep and others that don't involve injecting a pathogen and preservatives directly into your body.
You're right, we probably will never see another 1918 type influenza outbreak, unless a nuclear holocaust happens and we're all back in the Stone Age. We have antibiotics now to treat some pneumonias. We have a vaccine to protect against some pneumonias (but is has to be given before exposure). We have anti-virals that can be used to treat some cases of influenza itself. We have more supportive care modalities than we had in 1918, for sure. But the best defense is still to get vaccinated!

This Vitamin D business is a "bunch of malarkey". In 40 years of working in infectious disease, I've never heard of that. I've worked for the Colorado immunization program directly. That idea is without any merit whatsoever. Handwashing helps b/c handwashing always helps (despite that nutty "dirt" theory that is vastly misinterpreted), but influenza is an airborne virus. Excercise? Again, I know of NO scientific evidence that exercise will prevent flu. In fact, my daughter, at the time a competitive gymnast, got a very severe case of influenza that nearly landed her in the hospital. There is preservative-free flu vaccine available if you're concerned about a miniscule amount of thimerosal.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 12:21 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
11,200 posts, read 6,517,126 times
Reputation: 10785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
OR, you were not exposed in the first place.



You're right. We probably will never see another 1918 type influenza outbreak, unless a nuclear holocaust happens and we're all back in the Stone Age. We have antibiotics now to treat some pneumonias. We have a vaccine to protect against some pneumonias (but they have to be given before exposure). We have anti-virals that can be used to treat some cases of influenza itself. We have more supportive care modalities than we had in 1918, for sure. But the best defense is still to get vaccinated!

This Vitamin D business is a "bunch of malarkey". In 40 years of working in infectious disease, I've never heard of that. I've worked for the Colorado immunization program directly. That idea is without any merit whatsoever. Handwashing helps b/c handwashing always helps (despite that nutty "dirt" theory that is vastly misinterpreted), but influenza is an airborne virus. Excercise? Again, I know of NO scientific evidence that exercise will prevent flu. In fact, my daughter, at the time a competitive gymnast, got a very severe case of influenza that nearly landed her in the hospital. There is preservative-free flu vaccine available if you're concerned about a miniscule amount of thimerosal.
I wouldn't discount the vitamin D idea so quickly. One of the theories about why people in temperate climates develop flu more often in the winter is lack of vitamin D. So it makes sense in theory and there are at least some studies that support it. Exercise and healthy eating help prevent disease in general. Of course, a healthy person can get sick and can get the flu, but the flu vaccine was not intended for healthy people. When it originally came out, it was recommended for people with immune problems (infants, elderly ect). The idea that everyone should get a flu vaccine is fairly new. It's not a particularly effective vaccine and, unlike most other vaccines, it has to be given yearly. But despite my protestations here, I will be getting the flu vaccine this year. I'll let you know how it turns out. If don't come back here it's probably because I developed guillain barre and can't use my fingers anymore.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
Reputation: 33064
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
I wouldn't discount the vitamin D idea so quickly. One of the theories about why people in temperate climates develop flu more often in the winter is lack of vitamin D. So it makes sense in theory and there are at least some studies that support it. Exercise and healthy eating help prevent disease in general. Of course, a healthy person can get sick and can get the flu, but the flu vaccine was not intended for healthy people. When it originally came out, it was recommended for people with immune problems (infants, elderly ect). The idea that everyone should get a flu vaccine is fairly new. It's not a particularly effective vaccine and, unlike most other vaccines, it has to be given yearly. But despite my protestations here, I will be getting the flu vaccine this year. I'll let you know how it turns out. If don't come back here it's probably because I developed guillain barre and can't use my fingers anymore.
Good lord, the lack of Vitamin D in the temperate climate issue was resoved probably 100 years ago with the supplementation of milk with Vitamin D! And what is your rationale for influenza in the tropics, where it is common year-round?

PLOS Medicine: Influenza in Tropical Regions

I'm glad you're getting a flu shot. The relationship between influenza vaccine and Guillain-barre is not established. At its worst, it's minimal.
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