Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The use of worn out phrases like "conspiracy theory" to dismiss any and all information contrary to one's currently held views and beliefs, is nothing more than a transparent tactical deflection. Moreover, those who rely on such an approach to discussion and debate are ensuring that they remain permanently trapped in the same perpetual state of arrested intellectual development that they are currently suffering, as they insist on treating each new idea, opinion and fact as an enemy which must be defeated, by any means necessary, rather than viewed as a potential opportunity to expand one's knowledge and awareness.
This mindset truly highlights the often misunderstood differences between ignorance and stupidity, with the former being simply a lacking of accurate information, while the latter defines the insurmountable problem of one's inability or unwillingness to learn, ergo the concept "you can't fix stupid".
The best place to start for people suffering such a debilitating condition is to ask oneself a simple question .... at what point in time did you reach the conclusion that your knowledge of the world was total and complete, requiring no further additions? Then, you can try to uncover the cause which allowed this arrogant delusion of all-knowing state of perfection to take hold, and work from there.
So many problems revealed in such a simple single sentence! It's amazing! I would first like to point out to you the shear stupidity of making such a definitively false statement, given the fact that there indeed are Hundred's of Thousands, if not Millions of people that do question the science of immunization, including a number of whom that are Medical Doctors, Scientists, Researchers, along with the common folks numbering in the Ten's of Thousands who have actually suffered severe damage and death from vaccinations. What I believe you are attempting to convey is that, in your mind, there is no question. But it is beyond any stretch of the imagination as to how any rational, honest person could reach such an absurd conclusion. And I would thusly offer you the same advice previously given, which would encourage you to ask yourself how, in the course of all human history, a certain few like you achieved what no other human has managed ... that is to possess all of the knowledge and secrets of the universe, which allows you this X-Ray vision of reality that the rest of us can't see?
Your mindset also characterizes the foundational and broadly applicable flaws in modern scientific approach today (which includes medical science) who relies on demagoguery first, and then resorts to more strenuous and forceful measures to demand acceptance and compliance, if that should fail ... none of which seem to require actual scientific factual support ... just consensus agreement, and money to be made. The scientific peer review process which promises to safeguard the integrity of scientific information by consensus agreement, illustrates the nature of the fraud quite nicely, because consensus opinion has NEVER BEEN the insurer of truth. Truth doesn't require a majority vote, nor does it require protection by force, as truth has it's own defense mechanisms inbuilt. It cannot be changed, altered, created or destroyed by the collective desires and agreement of idiots, liars and self serving ideologues.
One truth, which happens to be the very topic of this thread, is not a "conspiracy theory" as has been insinuated. It's a factual account of new information gained by the latest scientific testing of childhood vaccines on infant monkeys, who manifested in response, similar symptoms of autism which is affecting an epidemic level of human children today. This isn't the only evidence linking vaccines with autism, but is indeed the most powerful to date scientific demonstration supporting decades of legitimate concerns over the safety of these vaccines, which have been met with nothing but a chorus of strenuous denials by mainstream medical science. Worse yet, this total hostility toward legitimate investigations of these concerns among those involved in the fields of immunology and pharmacology, coincide with decades of deliberate cover-ups of severe safety AND efficacy issues. They've been caught falsifying data, and burying inconvenient testing results so many times now, as to render official claims of both safety and effectiveness, less than useless. Those are FACTS ... and not an opinion. You, and several others here seem to have a "consensus" problem distinguishing between facts and opinions, which in your case, never matches up.
To be fair, many people simply aren't equipped to deal with all of the hidden facts and contrived opinions and contradictions and obfuscations revolving around vaccine safety, so they defer to their most trusted source of the truth ... their doctors. Unfortunately, that can be a deadly mistake in a world where truth has been replaced with false beliefs created by pure propaganda. And doctors are generally less knowledgeable about the pharmaceutical products they promote and distribute, than the used car salesmen working for Merck, who serves as the Doctor's ongoing source of supplemental education.
But the one thing most people can rely on to help protect themselves is the age old tool called common sense. Things as simple as understanding when the pharmaceutical industry spends hundreds of millions in lobbying for laws which will shield them from civil liability in the event of damage caused by their products, you can bet that they need such protection. The absurdity of allowing an industry to produce and distribute harmful products with complete immunity, defines the only real immunological value coming from the vaccine industry .... the immunity to poison you and your children, with impunity.
An excellent post. It's amazing how some of the pro-vaccine people on this board are so convinced that vaccines are "safe" and can never cause autism, yet the very vaccine court that they use to support that notion has ruled that ASD was related to vaccination in some cases. They also can't point to a serious of peer-reviewed cause and effect based studies that show no relationship between autism and vaccination. They claim that science and court decisions are on their side, but ignore science and court decision that, not only are not on their side, but belie the notion that vaccines have no role in ASD. Good scientist are always open to questioning things, even those things that are ostensibly "proven". There are scientific breakthroughs that occurred because people questioned ideas that were more heavily supported than the idea that vaccines are very safe and not related to ASD. Even Einstein said that the most important thing was to never stop questioning, yet the pro-vaccine people here have dug their heels in the sand and refuse to even entertain the idea that vaccination isn't as safe or as effective as they believe it to be. That's not responsible science, that's dogmatism. It's also, in my view, irresponsible medicine. We give people with hand lacerations a vaccine for whooping cough. Many times that's not what they are told; they are told it's a vaccine for "tetanus", which is partially true. But the vaccine often contains vaccines for whooping cough, diphtheria and tetanus. So doctors are treating hand cuts with whooping cough vaccines. It's insane really, and most people don't even realize they are consenting to it. They could have great immunity to pertussis, but if they cut their hand they automatically get another booster, and the risks that come with it, just because it's cheaper for the vaccine companies that way. I just don't see the logic in that at all.
David, this is what drinking Kool-aide on all fours will do to the mind of a man.
Even the vaccine documentation from the manufacturer admits that it can cause harm. So you can say whatever you want ... but the facts are, it really was the "jump" from the top of the high rise building that caused the damage, and not the sudden stop at the bottom upon impact. Cause-Effect .. it's really a simple equation.
Except that the entire cause and effect equation used to support a connection between vaccines and autism is predicated on the fact that children with autism have received vaccines. It ignores the fact that children without autism received the same vaccines, and although you may deride the science all you wish, when you look at large numbers of children, those who receive vaccines are no more likely to develop autism than those who do not.
To blame the "jump" from the high rise building when it actually was a gunshot that killed the victim before he hit the ground would be unwise.
We need to stop focusing on vaccines and look for other causes.
Also, you continue to ignore the harm that vaccine preventable infections cause. That is because vaccines have been so successful in preventing those diseases many people have never seen anyone with them. You may be interested to know that a lot of people in areas of the country with whooping cough outbreaks have suddenly decided that vaccines are not so terrible after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey
Since you and Suzy are so interested, I was involved in vaccine production. I was in college at the time though the job didn't require a 4 year college degree. Later, I worked as an analytical scientist in a lab, but we didn't test vaccines. And your description of me is 100% inaccurate from my gender to my level of education to my job... just an FYI. But formal training and education does not make a person an automatic expert in anything, and lack of formal education in a field doesn't necessarily mean that a person in ignorant in that field.
I notice you still have not told us what you mean by "involved." What did you actually do?
In post # 130, you said
Quote:
By "well established" do you mean billions of dollars paid to vaccine injured persons? I used to work in a lab that manufactured vaccine, I know what type of "rigorous testing" it goes through. And I'm curious to know how I can hold a drug manufacturer responsible for a faulty vaccine. Do tell.
This implies that you have special insight into the testing of vaccines. Why do you not want to share with us how you gained that insight? If your job did not require a college degree, forgive me for concluding that perhaps you were not involved in basic science research in vaccines or their testing.
So what did you do to "produce" a vaccine and why do you feel they are not tested properly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey
The government does not require children to eat peanut butter as a prerequisite to obtaining an education. And the government has paid billions of dollars for vaccine injury and dedicated an entire court to handle that "very small percentage" of the vaccine injury cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey
That same vaccine court has also awarded money to children with ASD which "resulted" from vaccination:
The vaccine court is also a political entity that is influenced by protecting the government. Courts are often worried about opening the "flood gates" to lawsuits, especially where those suits would be against the US government. Like I said earlier, there is not a sufficient number of cause and effect based studies that "prove" vaccines can never cause autism, so I don't know how anyone with any integrity can conclude that the issue is settled.
You cannot "prove" a negative. There is, however, ample scientific evidence that shows no cause and effect relationship between vaccines and autism.
Court cases are not scientific "proof" that vaccines cause injury. Courts do sometimes convict the innocent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman
This isn't a game Katiana, it's not about who's losing or winning....it's about providing facts for those with questioning minds that want to hear more than what (your favorites) the cdc, and who, and fda have to say...there are MANY, many, many credible doctors who provide facts to back up the fact that vaccines are more damaging than good....the insults come from you who refuse to read any links provided...you who would shoot the messenger before even reading what he has to say, despite repeated links that actually SHOW the vaccine damage, and sadness, and misery they've caused.
Anecdotes are not "facts". That's the whole problem. Ten anecdotes or ten thousand --- still not facts.
You cannot take the "damage, and sadness, and misery" that infectious diseases would cause without vaccines out of the equation. And the fact is that we would have thousands more damaged, sad, and miserable people without vaccines than we do with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
The use of worn out phrases like "conspiracy theory" to dismiss any and all information contrary to one's currently held views and beliefs, is nothing more than a transparent tactical deflection. Moreover, those who rely on such an approach to discussion and debate are ensuring that they remain permanently trapped in the same perpetual state of arrested intellectual development that they are currently suffering, as they insist on treating each new idea, opinion and fact as an enemy which must be defeated, by any means necessary, rather than viewed as a potential opportunity to expand one's knowledge and awareness.
This mindset truly highlights the often misunderstood differences between ignorance and stupidity, with the former being simply a lacking of accurate information, while the latter defines the insurmountable problem of one's inability or unwillingness to learn, ergo the concept "you can't fix stupid".
The best place to start for people suffering such a debilitating condition is to ask oneself a simple question .... at what point in time did you reach the conclusion that your knowledge of the world was total and complete, requiring no further additions? Then, you can try to uncover the cause which allowed this arrogant delusion of all-knowing state of perfection to take hold, and work from there.
So many problems revealed in such a simple single sentence! It's amazing! I would first like to point out to you the shear stupidity of making such a definitively false statement, given the fact that there indeed are Hundred's of Thousands, if not Millions of people that do question the science of immunization, including a number of whom that are Medical Doctors, Scientists, Researchers, along with the common folks numbering in the Ten's of Thousands who have actually suffered severe damage and death from vaccinations. What I believe you are attempting to convey is that, in your mind, there is no question. But it is beyond any stretch of the imagination as to how any rational, honest person could reach such an absurd conclusion. And I would thusly offer you the same advice previously given, which would encourage you to ask yourself how, in the course of all human history, a certain few like you achieved what no other human has managed ... that is to possess all of the knowledge and secrets of the universe, which allows you this X-Ray vision of reality that the rest of us can't see?
Your mindset also characterizes the foundational and broadly applicable flaws in modern scientific approach today (which includes medical science) who relies on demagoguery first, and then resorts to more strenuous and forceful measures to demand acceptance and compliance, if that should fail ... none of which seem to require actual scientific factual support ... just consensus agreement, and money to be made. The scientific peer review process which promises to safeguard the integrity of scientific information by consensus agreement, illustrates the nature of the fraud quite nicely, because consensus opinion has NEVER BEEN the insurer of truth. Truth doesn't require a majority vote, nor does it require protection by force, as truth has it's own defense mechanisms inbuilt. It cannot be changed, altered, created or destroyed by the collective desires and agreement of idiots, liars and self serving ideologues.
One truth, which happens to be the very topic of this thread, is not a "conspiracy theory" as has been insinuated. It's a factual account of new information gained by the latest scientific testing of childhood vaccines on infant monkeys, who manifested in response, similar symptoms of autism which is affecting an epidemic level of human children today. This isn't the only evidence linking vaccines with autism, but is indeed the most powerful to date scientific demonstration supporting decades of legitimate concerns over the safety of these vaccines, which have been met with nothing but a chorus of strenuous denials by mainstream medical science. Worse yet, this total hostility toward legitimate investigations of these concerns among those involved in the fields of immunology and pharmacology, coincide with decades of deliberate cover-ups of severe safety AND efficacy issues. They've been caught falsifying data, and burying inconvenient testing results so many times now, as to render official claims of both safety and effectiveness, less than useless. Those are FACTS ... and not an opinion. You, and several others here seem to have a "consensus" problem distinguishing between facts and opinions, which in your case, never matches up.
To be fair, many people simply aren't equipped to deal with all of the hidden facts and contrived opinions and contradictions and obfuscations revolving around vaccine safety, so they defer to their most trusted source of the truth ... their doctors. Unfortunately, that can be a deadly mistake in a world where truth has been replaced with false beliefs created by pure propaganda. And doctors are generally less knowledgeable about the pharmaceutical products they promote and distribute, than the used car salesmen working for Merck, who serves as the Doctor's ongoing source of supplemental education.
But the one thing most people can rely on to help protect themselves is the age old tool called common sense. Things as simple as understanding when the pharmaceutical industry spends hundreds of millions in lobbying for laws which will shield them from civil liability in the event of damage caused by their products, you can bet that they need such protection. The absurdity of allowing an industry to produce and distribute harmful products with complete immunity, defines the only real immunological value coming from the vaccine industry .... the immunity to poison you and your children, with impunity.
A lot of words there, but I do not see a single fact to support the notion that vaccines cause autism.
This from someone whose status is "Senior Conspiracy Theorist."
Q.E.D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper
Anybody wanting to hear a more moderate view of both sides of this argument should read this article. I could cut n paste various paragraphs that lend credence to my position, then the vaccine advocates could do likewise from within this same article. It tells both sides, what we know to date, and why reliable research is still wanting. Those on the fence, please read this article, and draw your own conclusions on how to proceed. One thing is certain, the pressure to vaccinate will increase, be as informed as possible.
The thesis of the first article seems to be that if some supposedly smart people believe something, it must be true. Some of the supposedly smart people who had not vaccinated their children in the areas of the country where there are now an increase in whooping cough changed their minds when kids started getting sick.
As I said before, legal decisions are not proof of a cause and effect between vaccines and autism.
An excellent post. It's amazing how some of the pro-vaccine people on this board are so convinced that vaccines are "safe" and can never cause autism, yet the very vaccine court that they use to support that notion has ruled that ASD was related to vaccination in some cases. They also can't point to a serious of peer-reviewed cause and effect based studies that show no relationship between autism and vaccination. They claim that science and court decisions are on their side, but ignore science and court decision that, not only are not on their side, but belie the notion that vaccines have no role in ASD. Good scientist are always open to questioning things, even those things that are ostensibly "proven". There are scientific breakthroughs that occurred because people questioned ideas that were more heavily supported than the idea that vaccines are very safe and not related to ASD. Even Einstein said that the most important thing was to never stop questioning, yet the pro-vaccine people here have dug their heels in the sand and refuse to even entertain the idea that vaccination isn't as safe or as effective as they believe it to be. That's not responsible science, that's dogmatism. It's also, in my view, irresponsible medicine. We give people with hand lacerations a vaccine for whooping cough. Many times that's not what they are told; they are told it's a vaccine for "tetanus", which is partially true. But the vaccine often contains vaccines for whooping cough, diphtheria and tetanus. So doctors are treating hand cuts with whooping cough vaccines. It's insane really, and most people don't even realize they are consenting to it. They could have great immunity to pertussis, but if they cut their hand they automatically get another booster, and the risks that come with it, just because it's cheaper for the vaccine companies that way. I just don't see the logic in that at all.
When are you going to acknowledge that infectious diseases harm people?
When are you going to acknowledge that the risk of those harms vastly exceeds the risks of vaccines?
You cannot ignore the diseases themselves and only harp on vaccines not being "safe".
The effectiveness of vaccines is only disputed by people who fall back on conspiracy theories. If vaccines did not work, we would still have to worry about smallpox.
As far as consent for a vaccine is concerned, we've been over that before. You will be offered a vaccine information sheet on every vaccine you take. It is your responsibility to read it, have someone read it to you if you cannot read it, and ask questions about it. If you do not know what is in a vaccine, that's your problem.
By the way, immunity to whooping cough diminishes over time. That is why it is wise to get a booster and why the two vaccines are combined. So your logic is the one that is faulty. Adults can get whooping cough. There's a thread or two here on CD about how nasty it is and how long it takes to get over it. You might find it enlightening to read some of the accounts from people who've had it.
So the reason for combining the vaccines is not to make it cheaper, but if it does so, that is a bad thing?
@MJJersey-My apologies, I had you confused with somene else from Jersey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
The thesis of the first article seems to be that if some supposedly smart people believe something, it must be true. Some of the supposedly smart people who had not vaccinated their children in the areas of the country where there are now an increase in whooping cough changed their minds when kids started getting sick.
Exacatly! Vaccine refusers are all over, but particularly thick in college towns. I should know. I've lived in several, and worked in the immunization programs in several. For some odd reason, engineers are particularly likely to be vaccine refusers. We have a massive pertussis outbreak going on here in Colorado; every day our office gets multiple calls from parents wanting to know if their kids are up to date on their immunizations. We've had a few refusers who have decided to get immunized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
When are you going to acknowledge that infectious diseases harm people?
When are you going to acknowledge that the risk of those harms vastly exceeds the risks of vaccines?
You cannot ignore the diseases themselves and only harp on vaccines not being "safe".
The effectiveness of vaccines is only disputed by people who fall back on conspiracy theories. If vaccines did not work, we would still have to worry about smallpox.
As far as consent for a vaccine is concerned, we've been over that before. You will be offered a vaccine information sheet on every vaccine you take. It is your responsibility to read it, have someone read it to you if you cannot read it, and ask questions about it. If you do not know what is in a vaccine, that's your problem.
By the way, immunity to whooping cough diminishes over time. That is why it is wise to get a booster and why the two vaccines are combined. So your logic is the one that is faulty. Adults can get whooping cough. There's a thread or two here on CD about how nasty it is and how long it takes to get over it. You might find it enlightening to read some of the accounts from people who've had it.
So the reason for combining the vaccines is not to make it cheaper, but if it does so, that is a bad thing?
True. I always ask if a parent (or patient if over 18) if they have any questions, even though they've been given the sheets and the doctor has discussed vaccines with them during their visit. I do not give the immunizations until all questions have been answered.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 10-13-2012 at 12:45 PM..
Ah, the trial lawyer shills keep praying I won't keep bringing up Wakefields study being funded by lawyers with current suits against pharma companies over autism.....
I keep mentioning it, you guys keep dodging it. Pathetic.
Conspiracy theorist is used as a term to categorize a group of people who have put faith/belief over reality. Who will leverage the best of human fallacy (cherry pick, ad hominimum, straw man) to make 0 points. Then argue that everyone who disagrees is either a :Sheep for believing the evidence (they are all against us after all) and/or paid by those as part of the conspiracy.
The program with conspiracy theorist is that is a religion. That the evidence/reality is just over the ridge. Please ignore the mountain, if you will, because I have found this molehill that really confirms my world view.
My view is not that I do not know the world in total. I am a man of skepticism. A man of logic. A man who puts quantitative evidence first.
if you show me a monkey study, and with two clicks I determine it to be discredited. You earn no favor with me. In fact, you cement yourself as a conspiracy theorist because a confirmation bias theorist would seek to believe a discredited monkey story at all cost. IF IT IS DISCREDITED IT MUST BE THE EVIL PHRAMA Companies.
if you show me a study that links the two, and with one click I note that the entire world calls it bull$hit. You earn no favor with me.
I've seen accusations of big pharma hiding information (well they wouldn't call it hiding, they just didnt' see it as relevant as the FDA did). I don't know where you have found evidence of falsification regarding the vaccine market. Not sure your source there. Hard for me to beleive anyone would go through the effort (lots of vaccines, lots of manufactures share a total pediatric worldwide is 10B compared to 550B pharma market)
All drugs take risks. Yet thats a another fallacious statement to point out that we don't know its perfect, so we shouldn't do it. Nothing is perfect. If you took that course of action you would never drive, fly, bike, anything. You would be afraid of public water (and always boil) on the small chance something went wrong down the line.
The amount of people hurt by vaccines is almost a rounding error compared to the lives saved. That is why we are able to have these federal programs (and other countries too) without issue. If people were routinely hurt (i'm thinking smallpox, which isn't the safest one out there) we would attempt to not use it.
One thing I agree on
But the one thing most people can rely on to help protect themselves is the age old tool called common sense.
and common sense says that we get to live in world without smallpox, polio, and the endless variety of plagues. I get to not worry that my son will not fear going to the pool. If my son is bit by a rabid dog, I will know it isn't a death sentence.
[MOD CUT/personal attack]
and for Pharma and their laws. If you want a pharma company to manufacture and produce a unprofitable product (most vaccines are commodities), you better bet the lawyers will say 0 risk. Thats just life. Goverments sign up for this, because its often the only way to get the drugs. Otherwise, all full steam ahead on Lipitor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
The use of worn out phrases like "conspiracy theory" to dismiss any and all information contrary to one's currently held views and beliefs, is nothing more than a transparent tactical deflection. Moreover, those who rely on such an approach to discussion and debate are ensuring that they remain permanently trapped in the same perpetual state of arrested intellectual development that they are currently suffering, as they insist on treating each new idea, opinion and fact as an enemy which must be defeated, by any means necessary, rather than viewed as a potential opportunity to expand one's knowledge and awareness.
This mindset truly highlights the often misunderstood differences between ignorance and stupidity, with the former being simply a lacking of accurate information, while the latter defines the insurmountable problem of one's inability or unwillingness to learn, ergo the concept "you can't fix stupid".
The best place to start for people suffering such a debilitating condition is to ask oneself a simple question .... at what point in time did you reach the conclusion that your knowledge of the world was total and complete, requiring no further additions? Then, you can try to uncover the cause which allowed this arrogant delusion of all-knowing state of perfection to take hold, and work from there.
So many problems revealed in such a simple single sentence! It's amazing! I would first like to point out to you the shear stupidity of making such a definitively false statement, given the fact that there indeed are Hundred's of Thousands, if not Millions of people that do question the science of immunization, including a number of whom that are Medical Doctors, Scientists, Researchers, along with the common folks numbering in the Ten's of Thousands who have actually suffered severe damage and death from vaccinations. What I believe you are attempting to convey is that, in your mind, there is no question. But it is beyond any stretch of the imagination as to how any rational, honest person could reach such an absurd conclusion. And I would thusly offer you the same advice previously given, which would encourage you to ask yourself how, in the course of all human history, a certain few like you achieved what no other human has managed ... that is to possess all of the knowledge and secrets of the universe, which allows you this X-Ray vision of reality that the rest of us can't see?
Your mindset also characterizes the foundational and broadly applicable flaws in modern scientific approach today (which includes medical science) who relies on demagoguery first, and then resorts to more strenuous and forceful measures to demand acceptance and compliance, if that should fail ... none of which seem to require actual scientific factual support ... just consensus agreement, and money to be made. The scientific peer review process which promises to safeguard the integrity of scientific information by consensus agreement, illustrates the nature of the fraud quite nicely, because consensus opinion has NEVER BEEN the insurer of truth. Truth doesn't require a majority vote, nor does it require protection by force, as truth has it's own defense mechanisms inbuilt. It cannot be changed, altered, created or destroyed by the collective desires and agreement of idiots, liars and self serving ideologues.
One truth, which happens to be the very topic of this thread, is not a "conspiracy theory" as has been insinuated. It's a factual account of new information gained by the latest scientific testing of childhood vaccines on infant monkeys, who manifested in response, similar symptoms of autism which is affecting an epidemic level of human children today. This isn't the only evidence linking vaccines with autism, but is indeed the most powerful to date scientific demonstration supporting decades of legitimate concerns over the safety of these vaccines, which have been met with nothing but a chorus of strenuous denials by mainstream medical science. Worse yet, this total hostility toward legitimate investigations of these concerns among those involved in the fields of immunology and pharmacology, coincide with decades of deliberate cover-ups of severe safety AND efficacy issues. They've been caught falsifying data, and burying inconvenient testing results so many times now, as to render official claims of both safety and effectiveness, less than useless. Those are FACTS ... and not an opinion. You, and several others here seem to have a "consensus" problem distinguishing between facts and opinions, which in your case, never matches up.
To be fair, many people simply aren't equipped to deal with all of the hidden facts and contrived opinions and contradictions and obfuscations revolving around vaccine safety, so they defer to their most trusted source of the truth ... their doctors. Unfortunately, that can be a deadly mistake in a world where truth has been replaced with false beliefs created by pure propaganda. And doctors are generally less knowledgeable about the pharmaceutical products they promote and distribute, than the used car salesmen working for Merck, who serves as the Doctor's ongoing source of supplemental education.
But the one thing most people can rely on to help protect themselves is the age old tool called common sense. Things as simple as understanding when the pharmaceutical industry spends hundreds of millions in lobbying for laws which will shield them from civil liability in the event of damage caused by their products, you can bet that they need such protection. The absurdity of allowing an industry to produce and distribute harmful products with complete immunity, defines the only real immunological value coming from the vaccine industry .... the immunity to poison you and your children, with impunity.
People, by and large, are fallacious illogical non-thinking .. .and don't bother to learn to think.
There are certain things that my utilitarian ethics jumps up and says "for the good of the many, the few idiots must be ignored"
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper
Anybody wanting to hear a more moderate view of both sides of this argument should read this article. I could cut n paste various paragraphs that lend credence to my position, then the vaccine advocates could do likewise from within this same article. It tells both sides, what we know to date, and why reliable research is still wanting. Those on the fence, please read this article, and draw your own conclusions on how to proceed. One thing is certain, the pressure to vaccinate will increase, be as informed as possible.
Except that the entire cause and effect equation used to support a connection between vaccines and autism is predicated on the fact that children with autism have received vaccines. It ignores the fact that children without autism received the same vaccines, and although you may deride the science all you wish, when you look at large numbers of children, those who receive vaccines are no more likely to develop autism than those who do not.
To blame the "jump" from the high rise building when it actually was a gunshot that killed the victim before he hit the ground would be unwise.
We need to stop focusing on vaccines and look for other causes.
Also, you continue to ignore the harm that vaccine preventable infections cause. That is because vaccines have been so successful in preventing those diseases many people have never seen anyone with them. You may be interested to know that a lot of people in areas of the country with whooping cough outbreaks have suddenly decided that vaccines are not so terrible after all.
I notice you still have not told us what you mean by "involved." What did you actually do?
In post # 130, you said
This implies that you have special insight into the testing of vaccines. Why do you not want to share with us how you gained that insight? If your job did not require a college degree, forgive me for concluding that perhaps you were not involved in basic science research in vaccines or their testing.
So what did you do to "produce" a vaccine and why do you feel they are not tested properly?
You cannot "prove" a negative. There is, however, ample scientific evidence that shows no cause and effect relationship between vaccines and autism.
Court cases are not scientific "proof" that vaccines cause injury. Courts do sometimes convict the innocent.
Anecdotes are not "facts". That's the whole problem. Ten anecdotes or ten thousand --- still not facts.
You cannot take the "damage, and sadness, and misery" that infectious diseases would cause without vaccines out of the equation. And the fact is that we would have thousands more damaged, sad, and miserable people without vaccines than we do with them.
A lot of words there, but I do not see a single fact to support the notion that vaccines cause autism.
This from someone whose status is "Senior Conspiracy Theorist."
Q.E.D.
The thesis of the first article seems to be that if some supposedly smart people believe something, it must be true. Some of the supposedly smart people who had not vaccinated their children in the areas of the country where there are now an increase in whooping cough changed their minds when kids started getting sick.
As I said before, legal decisions are not proof of a cause and effect between vaccines and autism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
When are you going to acknowledge that infectious diseases harm people?
When are you going to acknowledge that the risk of those harms vastly exceeds the risks of vaccines?
You cannot ignore the diseases themselves and only harp on vaccines not being "safe".
The effectiveness of vaccines is only disputed by people who fall back on conspiracy theories. If vaccines did not work, we would still have to worry about smallpox.
As far as consent for a vaccine is concerned, we've been over that before. You will be offered a vaccine information sheet on every vaccine you take. It is your responsibility to read it, have someone read it to you if you cannot read it, and ask questions about it. If you do not know what is in a vaccine, that's your problem.
By the way, immunity to whooping cough diminishes over time. That is why it is wise to get a booster and why the two vaccines are combined. So your logic is the one that is faulty. Adults can get whooping cough. There's a thread or two here on CD about how nasty it is and how long it takes to get over it. You might find it enlightening to read some of the accounts from people who've had it.
So the reason for combining the vaccines is not to make it cheaper, but if it does so, that is a bad thing?
You can create an experiment or series of experiments that would help establish that there is no cause and effect relationship between vaccines and autism, but it would be difficult and the ethics would be questionable. But until that happens I would be hard-pressed to conclude that vaccines are "safe" and can never influence the onset of autism. The people defending vaccines are using the vaccine court ruling to help support their case, so I brought up the other vaccine court rulings that suggest others. But I agree that a vaccine court is not an end authority on science issues.
I did acknowledge the need to prevent serious communicable diseases, and I used smallpox as an example of when a national vaccine policy might be warranted. At the time, smallpox was a devastating disease. The vaccine for smallpox can cause pretty bad reactions, but probably justified at the time. The risks of vaccine injuries in some cases exceed the risks of a particular disease. Smallpox is probably the best example. I don't doubt the effectiveness of some vaccines, but certain vaccines are less effective than others, and some people believe that vaccines are not effective at all.
On the consent issues, I must disagree. It might work that way in a perfect world, but most of the time people are told they are simply getting a tetanus shot. It might be best practice to inform someone about DTaP, but few nurses or doctors do it, at least in my experience. I think if we took a forum poll about the last time people received a "tetanus shot" most would say they were not told they were getting DTaP. Many people have no idea what they are getting, and are not told. Many people also probably don't need a "booster" for the other vaccines when they need a tetanus shot. Like I said before, if their titers are low for pertussis, then they can consent to a receive a pertussis vaccine. Or at least they could consent to and receive a pertussis vaccine if anyone made a single pertussis vaccine, but you can't get one here. Sorry, I still don't agree with giving people a vaccine when there is zero evidence that it will help them in any way.
Forced injection, unless you have a specific allergy, is what is called for.
not doing so is a bit like everyone staying underground because you could, just maybe, get hit in the head by a meteorite.
Actually an allergic reaction can be quite severe. It can kill a person or put them in a coma. So no autism isn't the only "harm" that has been discussed. The frequency is irrelevant to the harmed individual. The idea of forcing people to inject things into their body against their own will is a sick one.
Please stop with the crazy unrelated analogies. Free will and say so over ones beliefs and their own body is not outdated. However, the use of force on people is a rather old babaric idea.
Last edited by CDusr; 10-13-2012 at 03:24 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
