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Old 05-14-2012, 09:19 PM
 
15,706 posts, read 11,746,741 times
Reputation: 7019

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
you do know that Judaism is stronger against homosexuality then Christianity.
No they aren't. Reform, Reconstruction, and a large chunk of Conservative are all gay supporting. Even Orthodox Jews are struggling with the issue as more and more Rabbis are admitting they are gay.

In North America, Jews are very pro-gay. Israeli Ultra Orthodox aren't, but they are as backwards and delusional as Fundie Christians.

Reform:

The Reform Judaism movement, the largest branch of Judaism in North America, has rejected the traditional view of Jewish Law on this issue. As such, they do not prohibit ordination of gays and lesbians as rabbis and cantors. They view Levitical laws as sometimes seen to be referring to prostitution, making it a stand against Jews adopting the idolatrous fertility cults and practices of the neighbouring Canaanite nations rather than a blanket condemnation of same-sex intercourse or homosexuality. Reform authorities consider that, in light of what is seen as current scientific evidence about the nature of homosexuality as a biological sexual orientation, a new interpretation of the law is required.

In 1998, an ad hoc CCAR committee on Human Sexuality issued its majority report (11 to 1, 1 abstention) which stated that the holiness within a Jewish marriage "may be present in committed same gender relationships between two Jews and that these relationships can serve as the foundation of stable Jewish families, thus adding strength to the Jewish community." The report called for CCAR to support rabbis in officiating at gay marriages.

Reconstructionist:

The Reconstructionist movement sees homosexuality as a normative expression of sexuality and welcomes gays and lesbians into Reconstructionist communities to participate fully in every aspect of community life.

Conservative:

On December 6, 2006, The CJLS adopted three distinct responsa reflecting very different approaches to the subject. One responsum substantially liberalized Conservative Judaism's approach including lifting most (but not all) classical prohibitions on homosexual conduct and permitted the blessing of homosexual unions and the ordination of gay clergy.


Orthodox:

The statement makes it clear that homosexual activity is still prohibited, saying inter alia that "Halakhah sees heterosexual marriage as the ideal model and sole legitimate outlet for human sexual expression"; "Halakhic Judaism views all male and female same-sex sexual interactions as prohibited"; and "halakhic values proscribe individuals and communities from encouraging practices that grant religious legitimacy to gay marriage and couplehood". However, it emphasizes that homosexuals need to be treated with compassion and respect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism...Reform_Judaism

Seeing as Reform Judaism is the largest in the US, Jews are by Far more accepting of gays than American Christians.

You are the most violently gay hating Jew I've ever heard of.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:23 PM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,076,521 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by AeroGuyDC View Post
You know how you can tell when you have a liberal newbie on the forum? The word "bigot" and "bigotry" is the adjective of choice. Eventually, you'll understand that having an opposing view does not necessarily equate to being a "bigot." But as long as you're still wet behind the ears, we'll expect you not to understand as much.
Imposing your personal religious beliefs onto others with the force of law in a manner that denies them equal rights is a telltale sign of a bigot.

If I disagree with Christianity and therefore support laws banning Christians from civil marriage, am I not an anti-Christian bigot? If my religion teaches that black skinned people are inferior and therefore support laws banning black people from getting married, am I not an anti-Black bigot?

You don't see it as bigotry when gays are the target because you're blinded by your own hatred and intolerance of gay people.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:42 PM
 
3,550 posts, read 2,550,405 times
Reputation: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by helenejen View Post
Ah the sweet cocoon of miseducation. I get why you want to believe that guy. The truth won't let you reconcile siding with the Nazis in one of their views, so you reject peer-reviewed scholarship and historical documentation, and instead go with what a child of the Holocaust who was abused by a pedophile claims. Your rationalization allows you to sleep at night. I get it.
silly me I trust Holocaust survivors over gay historians.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:45 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,098,568 times
Reputation: 2037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest View Post
I don't carry who marries what, just don't spend my tax dollars approving it.
No your tax dollars will go towards approving it. Get over it.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:02 PM
 
3,550 posts, read 2,550,405 times
Reputation: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
No they aren't. Reform, Reconstruction, and a large chunk of Conservative are all gay supporting. Even Orthodox Jews are struggling with the issue as more and more Rabbis are admitting they are gay.

In North America, Jews are very pro-gay. Israeli Ultra Orthodox aren't, but they are as backwards and delusional as Fundie Christians.

Reform:

The Reform Judaism movement, the largest branch of Judaism in North America, has rejected the traditional view of Jewish Law on this issue. As such, they do not prohibit ordination of gays and lesbians as rabbis and cantors. They view Levitical laws as sometimes seen to be referring to prostitution, making it a stand against Jews adopting the idolatrous fertility cults and practices of the neighbouring Canaanite nations rather than a blanket condemnation of same-sex intercourse or homosexuality. Reform authorities consider that, in light of what is seen as current scientific evidence about the nature of homosexuality as a biological sexual orientation, a new interpretation of the law is required.

In 1998, an ad hoc CCAR committee on Human Sexuality issued its majority report (11 to 1, 1 abstention) which stated that the holiness within a Jewish marriage "may be present in committed same gender relationships between two Jews and that these relationships can serve as the foundation of stable Jewish families, thus adding strength to the Jewish community." The report called for CCAR to support rabbis in officiating at gay marriages.

Reconstructionist:

The Reconstructionist movement sees homosexuality as a normative expression of sexuality and welcomes gays and lesbians into Reconstructionist communities to participate fully in every aspect of community life.

Conservative:

On December 6, 2006, The CJLS adopted three distinct responsa reflecting very different approaches to the subject. One responsum substantially liberalized Conservative Judaism's approach including lifting most (but not all) classical prohibitions on homosexual conduct and permitted the blessing of homosexual unions and the ordination of gay clergy.


Orthodox:

The statement makes it clear that homosexual activity is still prohibited, saying inter alia that "Halakhah sees heterosexual marriage as the ideal model and sole legitimate outlet for human sexual expression"; "Halakhic Judaism views all male and female same-sex sexual interactions as prohibited"; and "halakhic values proscribe individuals and communities from encouraging practices that grant religious legitimacy to gay marriage and couplehood". However, it emphasizes that homosexuals need to be treated with compassion and respect.

Judaism and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seeing as Reform Judaism is the largest in the US, Jews are by Far more accepting of gays than American Christians.

You are the most violently gay hating Jew I've ever heard of.
1. "Reform-judaism", Reconstruction-judaism, and Conservative-judaism are not Judaism (while many of it's practitioners are Jewish their "religion" is not Judaism)
2. from R Tendler "Being an Orthodox Rabbi and actively gay is an oxymoron ... [It is] the exact same as if he said, ‘I'm an Orthodox rabbi and I eat ham sandwiches on Yom Kippur"
3. a plurality of all affiliated jews are Orthodox (947,020) Deform (766,352) Conservative (501,776) Deconstruction (41,436)
http://www.rcms2010.org/press_releas...2020120501.pdf
4. not 1 of the rabbis who signed that declaration is widely regarded
5. this was signed by the biggest rabbis from all segments of Judisim
Quote:
Declaration On The Torah Approach To Homosexuality

Societal Developments On Homosexuality

There has been a monumental shift in the secular world’s attitude towards homosexuality over the past few decades. In particular over the past fifteen years there has been a major public campaign to gain acceptance for homosexuality. Legalizing same-sex marriage has become the end goal of the campaign to equate homosexuality with heterosexuality.
A propaganda blitz has been sweeping the world using political tactics to persuade the public about the legitimacy of homosexuality. The media is rife with negative labels implying that one is “hateful” or “homophobic” if they do not accept the homosexual lifestyle as legitimate. This political coercion has silenced many into acquiescence. Unfortunately this attitude has seeped into the Torah community and many have become confused or have accepted the media’s portrayal of this issue.
The Torah’s Unequivocal And Eternal Message

The Torah makes a clear statement that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle or a genuine identity by severely prohibiting its conduct. Furthermore, the Torah, ever prescient about negative secular influences, warns us in Vayikra (Leviticus) 20:23 “Do not follow the traditions of the nations that I expel from before you…” Particularly the Torah writes this in regards to homosexuality and other forbidden sexual liaisons.
Same-Sex Attractions Can Be Modified And Healed

From a Torah perspective, the question whether homosexual inclinations and behaviors are changeable is extremely relevant. The concept that G-d created a human being who is unable to find happiness in a loving relationship unless he violates a biblical prohibition is neither plausible nor acceptable. G-d is loving and merciful. Struggles, and yes, difficult struggles, along with healing and personal growth are part and parcel of this world. Impossible, life long, Torah prohibited situations with no achievable solutions are not.
We emphatically reject the notion that a homosexually inclined person cannot overcome his or her inclination and desire. Behaviors are changeable. The Torah does not forbid something which is impossible to avoid. Abandoning people to lifelong loneliness and despair by denying all hope of overcoming and healing their same-sex attraction is heartlessly cruel. Such an attitude also violates the biblical prohibition in Vayikra (Leviticus) 19:14 “and you shall not place a stumbling block before the blind.”
The Process Of Healing

The only viable course of action that is consistent with the Torah is therapy and teshuvah. The therapy consists of reinforcing the natural gender-identity of the individual by helping him or her understand and repair the emotional wounds that led to its disorientation and weakening, thus enabling the resumption and completion of the individual’s emotional development. Teshuvah is a Torah-mandated, self-motivated process of turning away from any transgression or sin and returning to G-d and one’s spiritual essence. This includes refining and reintegrating the personality and allowing it to grow in a healthy and wholesome manner.
These processes are typically facilitated and coordinated with the help of a specially trained counselor or therapist working in conjunction with a qualified spiritual teacher or guide. There is no other practical, Torah-sanctioned solution for this issue.
The Mitzvah Of Love And Compassion

It requires tremendous bravery and fortitude for a person to confront and deal with same-sex attraction. For example a sixteen-year-old who is struggling with this issue may be confused and afraid and not know whom to speak to or what steps to take. We must create an atmosphere where this teenager (or anyone) can speak freely to a parent, rabbi, or mentor and be treated with love and compassion. Authority figures can then guide same-sex strugglers towards a path of healing and overcoming their inclinations.
The key point to remember is that these individuals are primarily innocent victims of childhood emotional wounds. They deserve our full love, support and encouragement in their striving towards healing. Struggling individuals who seek health and wellness should not be confused with the homosexual movement and their agenda. This distinction is crucial. It reflects the difference between what G-d asks from all of us and what He unambiguously prohibits.
We need to do everything in our power to lovingly uplift struggling individuals towards a full and healthy life that is filled with love, joy and the wisdom of the Torah.
just for the record arguably the biggest rabbi (R Moshe Feinstein) since WWII held a position that was much stronger then the above one
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
8,299 posts, read 8,591,512 times
Reputation: 3663
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
silly me I trust Holocaust survivors over gay historians.
So all that historical documentation was just made up by gay historians? Oh yes, that is certainly more likely. A vast conspiracy to make Nazis seem like homophobes when, in fact, they were the originators of gay pride parades. Makes perfect sense!

By the way, your tin foil hat is on way too tight.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:43 PM
 
3,550 posts, read 2,550,405 times
Reputation: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by helenejen View Post
So all that historical documentation was just made up by gay historians? Oh yes, that is certainly more likely. A vast conspiracy to make Nazis seem like homophobes when, in fact, they were the originators of gay pride parades. Makes perfect sense!

By the way, your tin foil hat is on way too tight.
I trust the holocaust survivors I talked to way more then modern historians.

no one is denying that gays were sent to the concentration camps but that was a convenient way to get rid of gay political enemies like old SA officers.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:46 PM
 
249 posts, read 193,209 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
I trust the holocaust survivors I talked to way more then modern historians.

no one is denying that gays were sent to the concentration camps but that was a convenient way to get rid of gay political enemies like old SA officers.
Having family that survived the holocaust, I trust historians that have taken the time to study not only survivor stories, but have read more information on Nazis than most survivors.

Regardless most SS men were not gay. Let's get that clear. Even if that were true, that doesn't mean that American gays must face discrimination because of a wholly unrelated event.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:59 PM
 
3,550 posts, read 2,550,405 times
Reputation: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by soulseoul View Post
Having family that survived the holocaust, I trust historians that have taken the time to study not only survivor stories, but have read more information on Nazis than most survivors.

Regardless most SS men were not gay. Let's get that clear. Even if that were true, that doesn't mean that American gays must face discrimination because of a wholly unrelated event.
who said most?
I said around 20%
I figured since liberals "think" their so educated they would know 2nd? grade math.

I'm not punishing american gays for nazi ones. I'm not punishing gays at all. for example banning homosexual behavior is the best thing for "gays" and will increase the life expectancy.

the only reason I brought gay Nazis is because someone else who brought them up to attack what I said. (thus my comments only dismissed ?hers?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by helenejen View Post
Why would we want to be like the Nazis who considered homosexuality abnormal?
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Old 05-14-2012, 11:21 PM
 
249 posts, read 193,209 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
who said most?
I said around 20%
I figured since liberals "think" their so educated they would know 2nd? grade math.

I'm not punishing american gays for nazi ones. I'm not punishing gays at all. for example banning homosexual behavior is the best thing for "gays" and will increase the life expectancy.

the only reason I brought gay Nazis is because someone else who brought them up to attack what I said. (thus my comments only dismissed ?hers?)
You are arguing that SS men were Nazis thus denying rights of gays is somehow negated?

Regardless of the fact that there is no historical evidence stating that 20% of SS men were homosexual, you do realize how it sounds when you are fleshing out your argument. You brought up gay Nazis to contradict a point that persecution is bad. Thus, you are saying let's deny rights of gays and oh btw the Nazis are gay...but there is no connection except it shows that gays are evil. Wow.

Sorry condescension in your case is really not helping your convoluted and ill informed argument.
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