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Old 06-12-2012, 04:24 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,637,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Where is you reference for $30K, I can find numerous ones that indicate otherwise.



She headed the English Department at the local high school but had full time teaching duties.
A department chair is an administrative position. With administrative pay.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:26 PM
 
Location: St. Joseph Area
6,233 posts, read 9,453,164 times
Reputation: 3133
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSHL10 View Post
Was flipping through some of the cable political shows tonite. Every Democratic guest mentioned firemen, teachers and cops suggesting more govt workers needed to hired as a stimulus plan. Never heard any other occupation mentioned.

After a while I thought they would break into song like in the Wizard of Oz!
Would you rather people sit on their butts and collect unemployment checks while not being productive? If the private sector won't hire them then the government should until the economy recovers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natalie469 View Post
Not sure what you mean by breaking into that song And what occupation would you want have to been mentioned. To me....firemen, teachers and cops are the heros in this country. They do so much for us with so little pay and accolades yet we expect so much from them. All some can do is criticize though
Not if you're a conservative. Conservatives--more or less--dislike teachers, cops and firemen because to them we're parasites. We're leeches who contribute nothing to society. I myself can testify to the out and out disdain conservatives have for teachers. It's truly incredible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natalie469 View Post
But aren't the average americans our fire fighters, police and teachers who get no respect. If not, who are the average americans you are talking about.
Residents of Chicago's North Shore or Midtown Manhattan for starters. To your average Republican, Uber-Rich CEO's are the real American heroes. The rest can go to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
NO. Police, firemen and teachers account for some average Americans. Not most or all, they are the minority of average Americans. What sets them apart from the rest of us average Americans are their benefit packages, especially teachers. The average American's benefits can not come close to comparing to what Teachers enjoy and yet our tax dollars pay for these benefits. The Average american can be fired based on poor performance. A teacher with tenure requires an act of god to be held accountable.
So yes your examples are members of average Americans and yet they are not us. They are a class all thier own, just as all civil service workers are.
I am not in a class all my own. Do I not pay taxes? Do I not contribute to the well being of my community by trying to provide a decent education to the children in my town? You act as if we all sit in some ivory tower exploiting taxpayers while we do nothing. I'm deeply sorry to receive a paycheck. Maybe I should just resign from teaching so that I won't be such a burden to the community. I'm such a greedy, horrible person, I know. All of us teachers are--every last one of us with our used cars and mid-sized houses.

Not complaining about my pay and benefits, by the way. Just complaining about the fact that there are so many people in this country who's minds are so screwed up that they villanize people in their own community who do jobs they themselves wouldn't do while elite CEO's are worshipped merely because they have more money. I fear for my country when I see this.

Welcome to the New Gilded Age
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:02 PM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,783,869 times
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Comments in blue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
Would you rather people sit on their butts and collect unemployment checks while not being productive? If the private sector won't hire them then the government should until the economy recovers.

Why? No one has an automatic right to be employed nor should the taxpayers be burdened. Do you realize that the size (as in number of people on the payroll) of the federal government has grown approx. 54% under the Obama administration?



Not if you're a conservative. Conservatives--more or less--dislike teachers, cops and firemen because to them we're parasites. We're leeches who contribute nothing to society. I myself can testify to the out and out disdain conservatives have for teachers. It's truly incredible. T

The distain is for the public sector unions and the collective bargaining which puts the money toward luxury pensions rather than the actual services and work for which the individuals are hired. In the case of teachers much of that disdain is their pushing of Progressivism/Marxism ideologies instead of actually addressing proficiencies in non-cultural studies such as language, writing, math, science.



Residents of Chicago's North Shore or Midtown Manhattan for starters. To your average Republican, Uber-Rich CEO's are the real American heroes. The rest can go to hell.

Really? I rarely put men or women up into the ranks of hero. Maybe you partake of idol worship but the word hero is greatly overused.



I am not in a class all my own. Do I not pay taxes? Do I not contribute to the well being of my community by trying to provide a decent education to the children in my town? You act as if we all sit in some ivory tower exploiting taxpayers while we do nothing. I'm deeply sorry to receive a paycheck. Maybe I should just resign from teaching so that I won't be such a burden to the community. I'm such a greedy, horrible person, I know. All of us teachers are--every last one of us with our used cars and mid-sized houses. Finished with your pity party?

Not complaining about my pay and benefits, by the way. Just complaining about the fact that there are so many people in this country who's minds are so screwed up that they villanize people in their own community who do jobs they themselves wouldn't do while elite CEO's are worshipped merely because they have more money. I fear for my country when I see this. I fear for my country when I find people like you attacking views other than your won with a wide brush and then admitting you are a teacher. Should we believe you don't take these negative additudes with you to the classroom to shape young minds to your opinion?

Welcome to the New Gilded Age
The public unions are guilding their pension nests with gold from the taxpayers who are already bleeding. This is why the far left failed in the Wisconsin re-call elections.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:39 PM
 
Location: St. Joseph Area
6,233 posts, read 9,453,164 times
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First off, MOGal, we're not marxist. Get a clue.

Second, Perhaps I paint with a wide brush because every negative and hateful comment about teachers and public Ed comes from conservatives. Ever stop to think of that? No, of course you wouldn't.

One thing I learned long ago is that there is nothing I as a teacher can possibly do to convince the average conservative/libertarian/tea party that my line of work has any value. Right wingers simply don't like us. The majority of them disapprove of my job and consider us no better than welfare recipients, and they always will. Even my fellow teachers who lean to the right realize this about them.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:41 PM
 
79,902 posts, read 43,887,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
Would you rather people sit on their butts and collect unemployment checks while not being productive? If the private sector won't hire them then the government should until the economy recovers.
Just like in Greece and Spain.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,975 posts, read 16,396,211 times
Reputation: 4586
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
Would you rather people sit on their butts and collect unemployment checks while not being productive? If the private sector won't hire them then the government should until the economy recovers.
When you say "until the economy recovers," you imply that they should be laid off when the economy does recover. At that point the layoffs will harm the economy. It's a vicious cycle. Not to mention that a whole lot of debt will be amassed while they are employed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
Not if you're a conservative. Conservatives--more or less--dislike teachers, cops and firemen because to them we're parasites. We're leeches who contribute nothing to society. I myself can testify to the out and out disdain conservatives have for teachers. It's truly incredible.
I don't think most conservatives consider teachers, police officers, and firefighters to be parasites or leeches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
I am not in a class all my own. Do I not pay taxes? Do I not contribute to the well being of my community by trying to provide a decent education to the children in my town? You act as if we all sit in some ivory tower exploiting taxpayers while we do nothing. I'm deeply sorry to receive a paycheck. Maybe I should just resign from teaching so that I won't be such a burden to the community. I'm such a greedy, horrible person, I know. All of us teachers are--every last one of us with our used cars and mid-sized houses.

Not complaining about my pay and benefits, by the way.
Most police officers, firefighters, public school teachers, etc. do receive benefits that most people working in the private sector do not - such as pensions and the like.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,209,612 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
When you say "until the economy recovers," you imply that they should be laid off when the economy does recover. At that point the layoffs will harm the economy. It's a vicious cycle. Not to mention that a whole lot of debt will be amassed while they are employed.



I don't think most conservatives consider teachers, police officers, and firefighters to be parasites or leeches.


Most police officers, firefighters, public school teachers, etc. do receive benefits that most people working in the private sector do not - such as pensions and the like.
Well, maybe not police and fire fighters; RWs seem to like cops, and firefighters fulfill many a little boys' dream, but teachers do seem to come in for a special kind of H*** on this forum. Just go back and read a few threads about teachers.
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:03 PM
 
Location: St. Joseph Area
6,233 posts, read 9,453,164 times
Reputation: 3133
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
When you say "until the economy recovers," you imply that they should be laid off when the economy does recover. At that point the layoffs will harm the economy. It's a vicious cycle. Not to mention that a whole lot of debt will be amassed while they are employed.


You have a good point, and that transition would be tough to gage (sp?) But I think that since many private sector jobs pay more than government jobs, then workers might choose to work in the private sector when companies start needing more workers. Just a thought.

I don't think most conservatives consider teachers, police officers, and firefighters to be parasites or leeches.

You'd be surprised. In my life, I've only had three conservatives ever have a positive thing to say about teachers (two on this forum, and one in real life) The rest of the time I've heard them call teachers (and others who work in education) all kinds of things (parasites, leeches, communists, anti-Christian, union thugs, etc...) or if they don't dislike teachers themselves, still support destroying or crippling public education. Just last week I had a long conversation with a friend--a nice naive college kid--who believes that education should be completely privatized. And, of course, he works for my (Republican) congressman. It's gotten to the point where if I hear someone knock us or the system, I automatically assume that they're a right winger--and I've never been wrong yet. Sadly, conservatives like you are in the minority.

And it's not just liberal teachers who see this. My more conservative colleagues also see it. They support many conservative ideas, but they always say, "I don't get what they have against us. Why don't they like us?" They really struggle with it.



Most police officers, firefighters, public school teachers, etc. do receive benefits that most people working in the private sector do not - such as pensions and the like.
I won't dispute that. But perhaps the question people should be asking is "why doesn't my company help provide decent benefits" instead of "why should those people get great benefits?

In good times, teachers were considered fools, choosing a career with medocre pay when you could make so much more money elsewhere. Now we're seen as the privileged class. But compared to a wall street CEO, a teacher is hardly privileged, even with benefits. I'm satisfied with my pay, and I love what I do, but I'm hardly the richest person in my town.
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:18 PM
 
17,815 posts, read 25,515,825 times
Reputation: 36262
Quote:
Originally Posted by natalie469 View Post
Not sure what you mean by breaking into that song And what occupation would you want have to been mentioned. To me....firemen, teachers and cops are the heros in this country. They do so much for us with so little pay and accolades yet we expect so much from them. All some can do is criticize though
So little pay? I guess it depends on where you live. You have cops/firemen retiring in NY who are getting leaving six figure jobs and retiring on pensions that pay way above the average salary in the area.

A regular patrolmen in Suffolk County, NY is earning over a 100K a year.

Even in places like Tampa, FL a cop who was caught having sex in his police car while on duty is being forced to retire early. His retirement pays out 46K a year, that's not what I would call little pay.

His 46K a year in retirement is still higher than the average salary of working people in his area.

One of the reasons many cities and counties are going broke is the outrageous retirement packages that are being paid out to cops, firemen, and other govt. workers.

And as far as teachers go, I have a cousin who is an elementary school teacher on Long Island, she is making 65K a year. She has been teaching about 12yrs, I would harldly call 65K a year for job that you only work 9 months out of the year low paying.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,975 posts, read 16,396,211 times
Reputation: 4586
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
You have a good point, and that transition would be tough to gage (sp?) But I think that since many private sector jobs pay more than government jobs, then workers might choose to work in the private sector when companies start needing more workers. Just a thought.
And the reason they will need more workers is because of demand from the government jobs. When the government jobs go away the demand goes away. You can't spend your way out of a bad economy. Spending is a temporary fix and even less appropriate when it comes with endless debt.

Not to mention - you don't need more teachers, firefighters, and police officers (those are the three specific occupations this thread is about) because of an economic downturn. If you need more, then you need more and shouldn't hire more only to lay them off. If you don't need more, then there's no point in hiring the additional ones at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
I won't dispute that. But perhaps the question people should be asking is "why doesn't my company help provide decent benefits" instead of "why should those people get great benefits?
The country has changed. Benefits that used to be offered in the private sector are no longer offered for the most part. People don't spend their whole careers working for the same employers anymore. Pensions and some of the other perks that used to be widespread are by and large no longer feasible....unless the taxpayers are funding them of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
In good times, teachers were considered fools, choosing a career with medocre pay when you could make so much more money elsewhere. Now we're seen as the privileged class. But compared to a wall street CEO, a teacher is hardly privileged, even with benefits. I'm satisfied with my pay, and I love what I do, but I'm hardly the richest person in my town.
I would never say that teachers are rich (clearly teachers aren't rich) or a part of the "privileged class," but I would say that a lot of public sector workers do have somewhat of a sense of entitlement to not have their pay or benefits cut even when the people paying their salaries and benefits (the taxpayers) are losing their jobs or taking huge cuts in pay and benefits. This is where some of the frustration with public sector workers lies.

Last edited by afoigrokerkok; 06-12-2012 at 11:13 PM..
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