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Old 07-01-2012, 08:07 AM
 
Location: 20 years from now
6,453 posts, read 6,983,734 times
Reputation: 4658

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
You're the one suggesting people take years and work as wage slaves to pay it off.





Average undergraduate tuition and fees and room and board rates charged for full-time students in degree-granting institutions, by type and control of institution: 1964-65 through 2006-07


Federal Minimum Wage Rates, 1955


1976 average tuition: 924 dollars
2006 average tuition: 8055 dollars

Min wage in 1976 was 2.30

Hours needed at min wage in 1976: 401

Min wage 2006: 5.15
Hours needed at min wage: 1564

I think this speaks for itself. 400 hours at 40 hours a week is 10 weeks of work to pay off tuition. Doable at a summer job in 1976 perhaps. 1564 hours at 40 hours a week is around 39 weeks. A good chunk of a year.

You're out of touch with a changing world. What was possible 30 or 40 years ago is not now.
So true.

I graduated nearly 10 years ago, and it really shocks me that within those last 10 years, tutition at my school has nearly doubled. The COL and COT (cost of tuition) certainly isn't on pace with wages.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:02 AM
 
Location: London, U.K.
3,006 posts, read 3,858,621 times
Reputation: 1750
To those claiming you can work your way through, it is near impossible to do this in certain fields due to the commitment the degree requires - architecture, medicine and law are obvious examples. When I was studying for my degree(s) 100 hour work weeks were the norm, just to get a 2:1 or better I had no choice other than put those hours in. Even on those degrees where you can put the hours in and work, the chances are it will severely affect your grade.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:10 AM
 
2,674 posts, read 4,377,812 times
Reputation: 1576
Quote:
Originally Posted by archineer View Post
To those claiming you can work your way through, it is near impossible to do this in certain fields due to the commitment the degree requires - architecture, medicine and law are obvious examples. When I was studying for my degree(s) 100 hour work weeks were the norm, just to get a 2:1 or better I had no choice other than put those hours in. Even on those degrees where you can put the hours in and work, the chances are it will severely affect your grade.
Are we talking undergrad or grad?

Medicine- you cannot work once you're into your clinical years (3,4) But medical school loans are a different breed, generally much easier to get than loans for law school or MBA.

Phd candidates in many cases can nearly go for free- if they T.A. as well.

However in undergrad, you can definitely work. You probably can't make enough to cover the whole spread but you can put a dent in the loans you have to take out.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:38 PM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
23,709 posts, read 30,611,948 times
Reputation: 9985
We've gone off on too many tangents. The new law does not effect people currently in school. It is not retroactive. It is currently for new undergrads and limits the payment to 12 FT semesters. So if you are a PT student doing 6 credits per semester, then basically you can go to school for 12 years (24 PT semesters). The only thing that changed for the 6 month grace period is that interest starts accrueing on day one. Your first payment is still not due for six months.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/recentChangesSA.jsp

Quote:
You are eligible to receive a Pell Grant for up to 12 semesters or the equivalent. If you have exceeded the 12-semester maximum, you lose eligibility for additional Pell Grants beginning in 2012-13 school year. Equivalency is calculated by adding together the percentage of your Pell eligibility that you received each year to determine whether the total amount exceeds 600%.
Quote:
Subsidized loans are loans for which the borrower is not responsible for the interest while the student is enrolled in college on at least a half-time basis, when the loan is in the six-month grace period after the student is no longer enrolled at least half time, or if the loan is in a deferment status. This provision eliminates the interest subsidy provided during the six-month grace period for subsidized loans for which the first disbursement is made on or after July 1, 2012, and before July 1, 2014. If you receive a subsidized loan during this timeframe, you are responsible for the interest that accrues while your loan is in the grace period. You do not have to make payments during the grace period (unless you choose to) but the interest will be added (capitalized) to the principal amount of your loan when the grace period ends. This provision does not eliminate the interest subsidy while the borrower is in school or during eligible periods of deferment
Now for grad students and beyond:

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/difficulty.jsp

http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/DefermentConditionsChart.pdf

So if you go to grad school then its deferred. If you can't find a job then its deferred.
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:43 PM
 
1,084 posts, read 1,840,964 times
Reputation: 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
We've gone off on too many tangents. The new law does not effect people currently in school. It is not retroactive. It is currently for new undergrads and limits the payment to 12 FT semesters. So if you are a PT student doing 6 credits per semester, then basically you can go to school for 12 years (24 PT semesters). The only thing that changed for the 6 month grace period is that interest starts accrueing on day one. Your first payment is still not due for six months.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/recentChangesSA.jsp





Now for grad students and beyond:

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/difficulty.jsp

http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/DefermentConditionsChart.pdf

So if you go to grad school then its deferred. If you can't find a job then its deferred.

Thank you for clearing it up!
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Old 07-01-2012, 04:37 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
3,006 posts, read 3,858,621 times
Reputation: 1750
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyDay View Post
Are we talking undergrad or grad?

Medicine- you cannot work once you're into your clinical years (3,4) But medical school loans are a different breed, generally much easier to get than loans for law school or MBA.

Phd candidates in many cases can nearly go for free- if they T.A. as well.

However in undergrad, you can definitely work. You probably can't make enough to cover the whole spread but you can put a dent in the loans you have to take out.
I can't really comment on the US, but in the UK, and with regard to architecture it is like that for both undergrad and postgrad. You are thrown in the deep end from the first week, and it's like that pretty much throughout your career. No way could I have worked during term time. We got 4 months off over the summers of course, during which I interned often unpaid or only made minimum wage. There is no way I could see myself passing 3 years BA and 2 years March and graduating without debt. And this was back when most of the degree was covered by government funding, these days it costs a minimum of £15,000 a year to do an architecture degree. Of course you get loans to cover it but we are slowly following the US model, tuition triples from £3000 to £9000 a year this September. I've no doubt that these types of changes will have a detrimental effect on students from poor backgrounds pursuing the professions.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:06 PM
 
2,674 posts, read 4,377,812 times
Reputation: 1576
Quote:
Originally Posted by archineer View Post
I can't really comment on the US, but in the UK, and with regard to architecture it is like that for both undergrad and postgrad. You are thrown in the deep end from the first week, and it's like that pretty much throughout your career. No way could I have worked during term time. We got 4 months off over the summers of course, during which I interned often unpaid or only made minimum wage. There is no way I could see myself passing 3 years BA and 2 years March and graduating without debt. And this was back when most of the degree was covered by government funding, these days it costs a minimum of £15,000 a year to do an architecture degree. Of course you get loans to cover it but we are slowly following the US model, tuition triples from £3000 to £9000 a year this September. I've no doubt that these types of changes will have a detrimental effect on students from poor backgrounds pursuing the professions.
You are probably right. But in effect, the market will dictate the degree unless you are immune to market forces. It's the same now- Poor folks generally don't go into Philosophy or Art History or History- generally- unless the education is more important than the ability to make a living off the education.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
8,299 posts, read 8,579,779 times
Reputation: 3663
Quote:
Originally Posted by helenejen View Post
There's a very good reason it's called the Information Age and not the Plumbing Age. You'll be fine.
To whomever sent me the rep message that read, "There's nothing wrong with being a plumber. Don't act like you're better than them or something. Get off your high horse."

Notice that I never said there was something wrong with being a plumber. However, people who want to act life is easier and better because one goes into a trade is full of it. And given that we are indeed in the Age of Information, being able to work with information is desirable, so the fact is is that liberal arts degrees do, in fact, lead to employment.

P.S. Grow a pair and post your comments in the thread rather than hiding behind an anonymous rep comment.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:43 PM
 
5,762 posts, read 11,602,021 times
Reputation: 3869
A lot of blue collar trades are "fragile" economically due to their small overall size.

Which is to say, if even a fairly small percentage of young people decide to become plumbing apprentices rather than go to some university, the plumbing field would quickly become overwhelmed, since the plumbing market in America is steady but also limited in scope.

There are a few trades where this has occurred, or is in the process of happening. Some areas now have a surplus of HVAC technicians, which has been a popular training course in recent years. Certain types of welding have seen wages hold steady or dip a bit as new trainees emerge into the workforce.

There are opportunities in the trades, but the list of tradesmen whose salaries have been crushed now and then by economic conditions or market-flooding of new entrants is quite long.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:52 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,484,908 times
Reputation: 22471
The good thing with many of the trades though is that it's easier to start your own business or work as an independent contractor in many of the trades. Many people in the trades don't even think twice about working independently.
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