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Old 08-07-2012, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Hinckley Ohio
6,721 posts, read 4,826,940 times
Reputation: 1376

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
Now I could swear that you've said in that past that corporations aren't people but it sounds like you're now saying they are people.
You have a problem with understanding the difference between a individual tradesman plying his trade and a corporation?
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Old 08-07-2012, 05:54 AM
Status: "Silent observation is not condoning" (set 18 days ago)
 
1,491 posts, read 1,429,615 times
Reputation: 2382
Any second now Slick Willie is gonna pop in and say, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:37 AM
 
14,295 posts, read 8,942,835 times
Reputation: 4250
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27 View Post
You have it slightly twisted. The townspeople, the blacksmith, the leather smith, the carpenter, the farmers, etc pooled their resources (GOVERNMENT) to resolve problems they encounter.
Wrong, we do not look to government to solve problems for us, but that is what a liberal would say. As if the townsfolk were too stupid, and were forced to hire smart people to decide what they should do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27 View Post
There wasn't businesses settling this country, it was individual tradesmen, farmers and the like. The first ppl to settle here formed a government BEFORE they left their ship. Government in its truest form has always been about mutual aid and protection. Almost every group of ppl will form a governing document and organize a governing body. Churches do the same. As soon as you have more than one person a division of responsibility takes place.

Government comes before enterprise, government creates the framework enterprise functions in. Before enterprise, in our distant pre history, when we lived in nomadic tribes we had government. It may have been a simple as a dominate male or a pecking order, but there was definitely a system where labor and reward were distributed.
You are confusing government with society. A society is a group of people with common goals and interests, like a nomadic tribe or a wagon train of settlers in the old west. I seriously doubt that settlers came to America, headed west on wagon trains, and the first thing they did was create a government, so they would have someone to boss them around. Government always comes last.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,003 posts, read 17,011,325 times
Reputation: 3786
Quote:
Originally Posted by OICU812 View Post
You are confusing government with society. A society is a group of people with common goals and interests, like a nomadic tribe or a wagon train of settlers in the old west. I seriously doubt that settlers came to America, headed west on wagon trains, and the first thing they did was create a government, so they would have someone to boss them around. Government always comes last.
Government apologists like to equate government with society, because society is often more rational and equitable than government has been throughout history.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Hinckley Ohio
6,721 posts, read 4,826,940 times
Reputation: 1376
Quote:
Originally Posted by summers73 View Post
Government apologists like to equate government with society, because society is often more rational and equitable than government has been throughout history.

Please, do name all these societies that don't have governments.....


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Old 08-07-2012, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,003 posts, read 17,011,325 times
Reputation: 3786
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27 View Post
Please, do name all these societies that don't have governments.....


Poor Somalia. Always the butt of jokes from neo-progressives.

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Old 08-07-2012, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,777 posts, read 12,796,699 times
Reputation: 5646
Quote:
Originally Posted by summers73 View Post
Poor Somalia. Always the butt of jokes from neo-progressives.
I don't mind debating the merits of libertarianism -- whose central preposition is that we do not need government -- which is a wrong preposition. Even Adam Smith, the founder of capitalism thought, recognized the need for government to promote justice; set necessary regulation; and build public works.* Society works best when there is cooperation between private and government entities. This thought is not a stranger to our land nor to history and is one that the intellectual founders of America accepted.

Somewhere along the line, conservative thought has metastasized into thinking that any recognition that government plays any positive role in the economy is an attack upon private enterprise. This is the basis for the backlash against Obama's statement, which would have been completely non-controversial just a few decades -- or centuries -- ago.



Quote:
*Adam Smith, from "The Wealth of Nations:" First the duty of protecting the society from the violence and invasion of other independent societies; secondly, the duty of protecting, as far as possible, every member of the society from the injustice or oppression of every other member of it…; thirdly, the duty of erecting and maintaining certain public works and certain public institutions, which it can never be for the interest of any individual, or small number of individuals, to erect and maintain.
Using Somalia as an example cannot be so cavalierly dismissed. Somalia is a land without government and a prime example of what a nation's economy becomes when it lacks the central foundations that government provides. Somalia has no uniform system to air disputes; no organized method to maintain safe dependable transportation of workers and goods; no police to enforce laws, etc. On the surface, Somalia should be a libertarian haven without those pesky rules and regulations that so arouse libertarians.

Last edited by MTAtech; 08-07-2012 at 03:51 PM..
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,003 posts, read 17,011,325 times
Reputation: 3786
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
I don't mind debating the merits of libertarianism -- whose central preposition is that we do not need government -- which is a wrong preposition. Even Adam Smith, the founder of capitalism thought, recognized the need for government to promote justice; set necessary regulation; and build public works.* Society works best when there is cooperation between private and government entities. This thought is not a stranger to our land nor to history and is one that the intellectual founders of America accepted.
Obviously you are yet another Somalian strawman user who lacks the intelligence to properly debate libertarianism.

Quote:
Using Somalia as an example cannot be so cavalierly dismissed.
It can be dismissed as that of a philistine simply because it has nothing to do with libertarianism. If only you knew that.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Louisiana
8,286 posts, read 4,926,729 times
Reputation: 6831
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
Using Somalia as an example cannot be so cavalierly dismissed. Somalia is a land without government and a prime example of what a nation's economy becomes when it lacks the central foundations that government provides.
Yes, it can.
People who want "limited government"
do not want "no government."
Why is that so hard to understand?
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,003 posts, read 17,011,325 times
Reputation: 3786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speleothem View Post
Yes, it can.
People who want "limited government"
do not want "no government."
Why is that so hard to understand?
It's because, like the meme indicates, they lack the necessary intelligence to properly debate libertarianism. Strawmen cater to the lowest common denominator. It's kewl to say that libertarianism is like being in Somalia.

Even Obama's supporters can't really agree on what Obama really meant. Some think he meant exactly what his opponents thought he said. Something think "that" meant roads and bridges (p*ss poor pronominalization)
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