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You still do not understand that the things which define what a business does is as applicable then as it is today. Both then and today (a) someone had to identify an opportunity (b) gather resources to be able to sell something (c) market it in whatever conditions your in, and (d) profit. This is just as true during the spice trade as it is today. Futhermore, there was no tax supported infrastructure for that person to make a profit. How much clearer do I have to make it?
Yes, it is totally relevant and you still don't get it. Doesn't surprise me, though. Would sock puppets help?
All you are talking about is identifying a need. So farmers grew stuff and would trade what they grew for other stuff. That's it. So the farming "business" in a feudal system was the same as farming now? Why don't you try supporting your argument? I supported what I was talking about by quoting from Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nation.
Why don't you support your argument that business now is the same as "business" B.C?
And tell me, how do you think that the software industry would do without government intervention in Chinese piracy? A lot worse than they already are or better?
What people? My parents took the time and GAVE me opportunities. Not too many others. I had some good enough teachers but they were getting PAID, they weren't volunteering. Teaching in a way was their business, except they were really just working in a business, getting paychecks, vacation pay, and other benefits. Same with any professors I had, they weren't volunteering either.
Yes, I owe a lot to my parents -- but the rest pretty much got their paychecks. That doesn't mean like anyone else who works can't take pride in a <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">job</a> and do the best they can.
Did you pick which family you were born into? How come you weren't born into a family with 2 drug addict parents? How come you were born in America and not some impoverished nation?
Did you pick which school district you were born into?
Is it possible that he just said something stupid or phrased it in a dumb way? I mean, I personally wouldn't have touched that issue if I were on the campaign trail and I'm surprised his campaign adviser let him go there. But idiotic statements aside, his policies haven't really been anti-business. Romney won't be any better, and I think you know that.
No, his policies have not been anti-business...
unless you are a hometown banker, in which case your bank has been savaged by Dodd-Frank and you will have to sell out to a big chain bank.
unless you are a power company, a cement company, or any other organization that burns coal, in which case your costs have been driven up dramatically, and one-fifth of your facilities will have to be closed in order to meet a dramatic expansion of the EPA.
unless you are a business that preferred high-deductible health insurance with health savings accounts (the only proven real-world health cost reducer), in which case the government has decreed that your plan is not "insurance" and must be tossed out in favor of cadillac coverage with no deductibles or copays even for routine expenses.
unless you are in business to make a profit by delivering more value to customers than the cost of the product or service, in which case yu have to listen to the bureaucrat-in-chief malign the very principle that has made the world as wealthy as it is.
....or if your business ever uses electricity, cement, or banking services.
Yeah, other than those minor exceptions, Obama has been a true champion of the American system of free enterprise and economic liberty. Riiiiiight.
All you are talking about is identifying a need. So farmers grew stuff and would trade what they grew for other stuff. That's it.
A business is a business. What I point out and you fail to grasp is a business can be made merely by having a group of people and something to exchange with that group to gain more. This means a government infrastructure is not necessary to have a business, and I already made that case.
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Originally Posted by helenejen
So the farming "business" in a feudal system was the same as farming now? Why don't you try supporting your argument? I supported what I was talking about by quoting from Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nation.
Why don't you support your argument that business now is the same as "business" B.C?
Spice trade does not equal feudal system. I explicitly chose spice trade precisely for the reason you're trying to lead me to. Read a history book or at least read the link I supplied. The spice trade formed well before feudal systems.
BTW the spice trade era is well documented and it shows how businesses were created well before major government infrastructures existed and shaped our history. This alone proves that businesses can start and flourish without government infrastructure.
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Originally Posted by helenejen
And tell me, how do you think that the software industry would do without government intervention in Chinese piracy? A lot worse than they already are or better?
LOL Whoosh! I was talking about the salient characteristics of a business. I was trying to point out what constitutes a business and what is necessary for it to form. In no way shape or form was I trying to directly equivocate today's society with what happened thousands of years ago. I don't know why you're trying to get me to say that. Are the conditions which business exists different today than of the spice trade era? Duh, yes. That's not the point I'm making.
...or to just run their own business. But of course, that would be too stressful. Best to work for the man so you don't have to think as much.
I don't see it quite that way -- you can decide you would rather work for someone else than own your own business because you really don't choose to take all the risks. You don't want to invest your money and so much time into something that may or may not succeed.
The business owner took the risks, the employees pretty much expected only to get a paycheck which of course the business owner could only provide after he got everything going.
Now there might be some employees who do give and help the business owner make it -- employees who were willing to work for very little, or even go without a paycheck along with their employer in the very tough times when things weren't sure -- but those would be highly unusual workers. I know from my dad's business, even though he would go without a paycheck, he pretty much had to make sure his employees got paid.
Customers???? The person who opens a business starts all that out by noticing and deciding what customers might want to buy -- but it's not customers that put long hours and work into a business, nor do they take a risk. They're just customers.
And how did his customers even have the ability to afford or acquire the goods?
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What's wrong with someone wanting to own a business and if he does right by the customers, his business with thrive, if he miscalculates or doesn't please the customers, the business will not thrive.
Obama is not right in any way on this.
Who is arguing otherwise. You are severely misinterpreting the president or myself if you think that was the meaning.
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Originally Posted by Gtownoe
Did you pick which family you were born into? How come you weren't born into a family with 2 drug addict parents? How come you were born in America and not some impoverished nation?
Did you pick which school district you were born into?
And the list goes on....
I think selfishness explains partly why these people can't see how our economic system and society itself is the culmination of its past and present.
A business is a business. What I point out and you fail to grasp is a business can be made merely by having a group of people and something to exchange with that group to gain more. This means a government infrastructure is not necessary to have a business, and I already made that case.
Quote:
Spice trade does not equal feudal system. I explicitly chose spice trade precisely for the reason you're trying to lead me to. Read a history book or at least read the link I supplied. The spice trade formed well before feudal systems.
BTW the spice trade era is well documented and it shows how businesses were created and shaped our history. This alone proves that businesses can start and flourish without government infrastructure.
You are completely trying to create an argument out of nothing. There is no comparison between the economic systems to which you are arguing with. Yes you are right, business can exist and thrive without our modern notion of government, but what does that have to do with anything?
Why is that the most successful "businesses" had the backing of very strong and powerful central governments; you know like how Greek and Roman emperors ruled or how European Monarchs ruled like the Dutch, French, Spanish, and, of course, the British.
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LOL Whoosh! I was talking about the salient characteristics of a business. I was trying to point out what constitutes a business and what is necessary for it to form. In no way shape or form was I trying to directly equivocate today's society with what happened thousands of years ago. I don't know why you're trying to get me to say that. Are the conditions which business exists different today than of the spice trade era? Duh, yes. That's not the point I'm making.
Great you realize your comparison is silly, we can move on.
A business is a business. What I point out and you fail to grasp is a business can be made merely by having a group of people and something to exchange with that group to gain more. This means a government infrastructure is not necessary to have a business, and I already made that case.
Once again you are doing chicken and egg. Why not offer some points relevant to the current world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkbatca
Spice trade does not equal feudal system. I explicitly chose spice trade precisely for the reason you're trying to lead me to. Read a history book or at least read the link I supplied. The spice trade formed well before feudal systems.
BTW the spice trade era is well documented and it shows how businesses were created well before major government infrastructures existed and shaped our history. This alone proves that businesses can start and flourish without government infrastructure.
Since when is "farmer" synonymous with "spice trader"? I was obviously speaking about farmers, hence my use of "farmer." There were farmers in the feudal system and there are farmers now, are there not?
Why will you not talk about anything at least related to modern culture? Who cares about some ideal society that you've carved out where businesses flourished and governments didn't exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkbatca
LOL Whoosh! I was talking about the salient characteristics of a business. I was trying to point out what constitutes a business and what is necessary for it to form. In no way shape or form was I trying to directly equivocate today's society with what happened thousands of years ago. I don't know why you're trying to get me to say that. Are the conditions which business exists different today than of the spice trade era? Duh, yes. That's not the point I'm making.
Perhaps you would be more comfortably in the History forum?
Sheesh. The President did not say "Some people can't see how our economic system and society itself is the culmination of the past and present."
He said, "If you've got a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else did."
Saying something and meaning something can be two entirely different things. Do I think he should have kept mouth shut in this instance, absolutely. He lobbed that over the plate for those who are willing to blast him, lie in order to blast him, and just generally looking for any excuse to say something negative about him.
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I think envy or greed or the desire to freeload on the efforts of others explains why so many cannot see the problem with what the President said.
Really? And please quantify the "desire to freeload on the efforts". I love these vague politic rhetoric statements.
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Why don't you try supporting your argument? I supported what I was talking about by quoting from Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nation.
